Flying behind the power cure

John you have the best intentions in the world.

We need guys like you.

You perform a huge service to the gyro community.

But, listen to Marion.

Just passing on information before you have actually done it can be tricky.
 
In my opinion put in the most basic terms the effectiveness of an aerodynamic control surface goes up or down by the square of the change in the air speed.

If a gyroplane is using the horizontal stabilizer to manage the moment created by an increase in power with a high thrust line the horizontal stabilizer is not very effective at managing this moment at low indicated air speeds and high angles of attack.

This is a part of why telling people to push the nose down is so dangerous. In a gyroplane we don’t control the angle of the aircraft, the location of the rotor thrust vector and the horizontal stabilizer controls the angle of the fuselage and there is a delay in the response to moving the cyclic forward.

A gyroplane trimmed for fifty or sixty knots indicated air speed will have considerable back pressure to maintain the low indicated air speed and it is only desirable to release that back pressure, not push forward.

Generally speaking most fixed wing aircraft have greater horizontal stabilizer volume and don’t operate at low indicated air speeds that a gyroplane does. This is one of the reasons that a comparison to how to fly a fixed wing aircraft is misleading.

What would be the procedure for recovering from a twenty knot indicated airspeed sink in your Piper?

The whole point of the rotor is to keep the lifting airfoil below the critical angle of attack at low indicated air speeds.

My hope for the value of this exercise is to help people following the progression of understanding will recognize that a gyroplane is not flown anything like a fixed wing aircraft. I feel that will be difficult in the final draft because people won’t have gone through the process of understanding what the wrong words are so the fixed wing pilots will be able to cling to the fantasy that a gyroplane flies just like a fixed wing. You will write “release back pressure” and they will read “push the nose down”.

Part of what I do when giving dual instruction is to find ways to demonstrate why many of the things that fixed wing pilots feel they know about flying do not apply to gyroplanes. Some learn quicker than others.

It is much easier to demonstrate these things in a gyroplane than it is to explain them John. As you can see even though these things have been demonstrated to you in a gyroplane; you still cling to your misunderstanding. You are not unique in this so please don’t take it as a personal attack. It is human nature.

That is why there is value in hours flying a gyroplane; these lessons are taught over and over again.

I feel learning to fly a gyroplane is an iterative process.
I'm still not certain but I think you said yes? to my thinking "Is this because many gyro's are not CLT and the pitch will change when you add power and you want more air flowing over the HS?"

How would you describe pushing the nose over to a complete novice who has never felt back pressure on a stick before? Not sure they would understand releasing the back pressure as much as what happens to nose when you reduce the angle of attack.

Bensen describes it as "dive or diving down"? So I assume you believe that Bensen's description was even more dangerous than mine?

When I'm in control flying my Piper Archer or a Navajo at 20 knots my nose is pointing straight up when it hit 20 knots and descends to 0 when they stop climbing and then I hit 20 knots again as they fall down towards gravity in a tail slide. But the pits a friend let me fly I can fly 20 knots hanging vertically on the prop but still climbing. HaHaHaHaHehehehe
That is the only time I'm in control at 20 knots unless an ultralight.

If I were flying straight and level in the Archer I would already be in a spin and my airspeed is greater than 20 knots.
If she had full fuel and just me in her I can get down to about 40 knts at sea level on a standard temperature day but she would be buffeting and about to stall again faster than 20 knots airspeed suggested.

How many hours of fixed wing time do you have logged to be able to teach and understand the differences in fixed wing and gyroplanes? Please don’t take this as a personal attack.

I use iterative to describe the math computations I do in algorithms for programing computers. I assume you mean repeating the maneuver over and over again?
 
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John I really appreciate your enthusiasm.

I feel no questions are dumb when talking to your CFI. It could be a life changing question.

Most instructors won't comment on the forum for fear of being responsible for someones health.

Just stay out from behind the power curve. It's just that simple.
Thank you Brent for your appreciation of one of my only good qualities and cannot help it.

The responsibility problem is why many CFI's turn me down to write this for us.
I suspect that is a plus for me as I'm an idiot and you know me from the broad of directors if no one else will do it I'm all in.

Your right "Just stay out from behind the power curve" and it is so easy just watch your AIRSPEED yet there is another trained low time pilot's video of a crash because he was behind the power curve.

His instructor did not teach him to watch his airspeed so I hope this presentation, much like Bensen wrote about it, will help student pilots understand the theory before the instructor demonstrates it for them and they practice slow flight.
When you know the theory and then reinforce it by actually being trained it really all comes together so much more quickly for me.
 
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Post #1:
My


See John; full power will not allow the nose to come up; only the bottom of the ditchline!
Sorry;
Could not help myself!
hahahahahaha
I love this site you guys crack me up!!!!

I've removed the FW portion so do not be offended if I do not include your suggestion of the "Auto's".:lol:
 
Chuck thank you for posting that. I'm reviewing what portions I may include
 
John you have the best intentions in the world.

We need guys like you.

You perform a huge service to the gyro community.

But, listen to Marion.

Just passing on information before you have actually done it can be tricky.
Thank you Leigh!!

My friends must be right! I will not publish it. I will only write it and ask for it to be audited for myself and wait until I have more time in type to share with others as I'm obviously missing something it seem so easy. Then rewrite it and publish it next year or take a year off flying and publish it the year after for others. It will be interesting to me to see how it changes with experience in type.
 
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Going to put this as a example so I do not forget where it is now that it will only be offered to the public a year or two from now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AheudQuxZZY

Its one of the best examples I remember seeing.
 
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My 2 Cent

My 2 Cent

In life me and Marion do not agree all the time, but this time talking gyro teaching I do 100% with Marion.
John if you looking for short cut to learn gyro , you wrong.
Get real and spend money and time on learning gyro from CFI and be
safe pilot.
Because you think you are good fix wing pilot, don't make you good gyro pilot.
Thank you Marion for trying save one more life.

Thank you
Tadgyro /Teddy
 
In life me and Marion do not agree all the time, but this time talking gyro teaching I do 100% with Marion.
John if you looking for short cut to learn gyro , you wrong.
Get real and spend money and time on learning gyro from CFI and be
safe pilot.
Because you think you are good fix wing pilot, don't make you good gyro pilot.
Thank you Marion for trying save one more life.

Thank you
Tadgyro /Teddy
Oh I've already spent money and ready to solo. My parts are on the way and soon I will have a gyro to fly everyday.
But your too late and beating a dead horse I already posted I will wait to help others who like to learn this way for a year or two.
 
Just stay out from behind the power curve. It's just that simple.

Brent, with respect, that's where much of the fun lies, and can be had safely, in a small gyro.

Staying out from behind the power curve would mean never going below the minimum power required speed, about 55 MPH in a Calidus, or below about 40 MPH in a Bensen.

I think the trick is to learn where max power barely holds straight-and-level, and avoiding that or anything below it, until you're 6 inches off the runway, about to attempt a vertical descent, or otherwise ready to let gravity have its way.
 
I'm still not certain but I think you said yes? to my thinking "Is this because many gyro's are not CLT and the pitch will change when you add power and you want more air flowing over the HS?"

That is not what I wrote at all John. If I am flying a centerline thrust gyroplane or a low thrust line gyroplane I might add power before I had regained my airspeed.

I don’t teach adding power at low airspeed because so many of today’s gyroplanes are thigh thrust line. The horizontal stabilizer is not very effective at low air speed and I explained why.

Most of today’s gyroplanes don’t have the horizontal stabilizer in the prop blast.

High thrust line gyroplanes with the horizontal stabilizer outside of the propeller slip stream seem to be what people want to buy so that is what I am teaching people to fly.
 
Teddy you are right in that you and I don't agree all he time but I

Teddy you are right in that you and I don't agree all he time but I

always do know that you have a good heart.
Thank you for your good advice to John to get flight instruction and learn to fly the gyro.
Marion
 
How would you describe pushing the nose over to a complete novice who has never felt back pressure on a stick before? Not sure they would understand releasing the back pressure as much as what happens to nose when you reduce the angle of attack.

I would not describe pushing the nose over in a gyroplane because that is not what I do.

I teach flying the rotor John.

As soon as most people slow down in a gyroplane they find that there is a lot of back pressure on the cyclic and it is not hard for them to understand releasing it.

I had a Bonanza pilot push the cyclic forward in the Cavalon and I found it disquieting and I took the aircraft controls back. I asked them what they were doing and the response was; “nothing was happening with the nose so I kept pushing forward until I pushed the nose down.”
 
Bensen describes it as "dive or diving down"? So I assume you believe that Bensen's description was even more dangerous than mine?

I have not read what Bensen wrote so I don’t know the context of it.

I have not flown a Bensen Gyrocopter so I don’t know anything about how they fly.

A lot of people were killed flying Bensen Gyrocopters and I don’t pretend to know precisely why.
 
When I'm in control flying my Piper Archer or a Navajo at 20 knots my nose is pointing straight up when it hit 20 knots and descends to 0 when they stop climbing and then I hit 20 knots again as they fall down towards gravity in a tail slide. But the pits a friend let me fly I can fly 20 knots hanging vertically on the prop but still climbing. HaHaHaHaHehehehe
That is the only time I'm in control at 20 knots unless an ultralight.

If I were flying straight and level in the Archer I would already be in a spin and my airspeed is greater than 20 knots.
If she had full fuel and just me in her I can get down to about 40 knts at sea level on a standard temperature day but she would be buffeting and about to stall again faster than 20 knots airspeed suggested.

That was my point John. A gyroplane doesn’t fly just like your Piper because you don’t fly your Piper at 20kts indicated airspeed.

A gyroplane is completely controllable at that speed.
 
John, I'm no expert, but I know this to be false. The rotorblade stalls under the same circumstances as any other airfoil - when it exceeds its critical angle of attack. I suspect that the majority of gyro rotor stalls actually happen at relatively low airspeeds.
Hi Paul...
I check the quote and it came from Chuck so I'm going to leave it in unless Chuck explains how I blew it.
 
How many hours of fixed wing time do you have logged to be able to teach and understand the differences in fixed wing and gyroplanes? Please don’t take this as a personal attack.

I have three hours in a Stearman Model 75 and two and a half hours under the hood in a Cessna 172.

I have done stalls and spins in the Stearman and unusual attitudes in the 172.

I don’t teach people how to fly fixed wing aircraft John.

I can see the baggage that some fixed wing pilots bring to the gyroplane flying experience and I work to mitigate that.

Generally speaking they have challenges with rotor management and want to rotate at some specific indicated air speed.

When I tell many fixed wing pilots to descend at a constant indicated air speed they move the cyclic forward to lower the nose before pulling the power. This tends to produce divergent indicated air speed. I have to tell them to pull the power and maintain airspeed with the cyclic.

Most feel that they need the rudder to make a turn.

Often they are confused by the steep descent for landing.

Many have a challenge with the delay in the controls and their fuzzy control over the angle of the fuselage. They forget they are flying the rotor and they are controlling the rotor with cyclic control.

Most fixed wing pilots are confused by the power/pitch/yaw coupling.

Some fixed wing pilots take to flying a gyroplane very well. My friend Joe who flies an Aeronca flew the Cavalon well with no instruction at all. He is the best to date managing pitch and yaw when I pulled the power back.

I had an airline transport pilot go from no gyroplane experience to passing his practical test with 3.6 hours of dual. By the end he was managing his airspeed so well I was taping the air speed indicator to see if it was stuck.

My friend John has done very well flying both the Cavalon and The Predator with very little instruction. He is an instrument rated fixed wing pilot that flies formations.

Everyone is different John.
 
I have three hours in a Stearman Model 75 and two and a half hours under the hood in a Cessna 172.

I have done stalls and spins in the Stearman and unusual attitudes in the 172.

I don’t teach people how to fly fixed wing aircraft John.

I can see the baggage that some fixed wing pilots bring to the gyroplane flying experience and I work to mitigate that.

Generally speaking they have challenges with rotor management and want to rotate at some specific indicated air speed.

When I tell many fixed wing pilots to descend at a constant indicated air speed they move the cyclic forward to lower the nose before pulling the power. This tends to produce divergent indicated air speed. I have to tell them to pull the power and maintain airspeed with the cyclic.

Most feel that they need the rudder to make a turn.

Often they are confused by the steep descent for landing.

Many have a challenge with the delay in the controls and their fuzzy control over the angle of the fuselage. They forget they are flying the rotor and they are controlling the rotor with cyclic control.

Most fixed wing pilots are confused by the power/pitch/yaw coupling.

Some fixed wing pilots take to flying a gyroplane very well. My friend Joe who flies an Aeronca flew the Cavalon well with no instruction at all. He is the best to date managing pitch and yaw when I pulled the power back.

I had an airline transport pilot go from no gyroplane experience to passing his practical test with 3.6 hours of dual. By the end he was managing his airspeed so well I was taping the air speed indicator to see if it was stuck.

My friend John has done very well flying both the Cavalon and The Predator with very little instruction. He is an instrument rated fixed wing pilot that flies formations.

Everyone is different John.
Bro I have 7 or 8 hours of instruction and maybe 12 or 15 hours including flying with friends and I do agree it not enough for me to teach the difference in flying a gyro.
 
I think the trick is to learn where max power barely holds straight-and-level, and avoiding that or anything below it, until you're 6 inches off the runway, about to attempt a vertical descent, or otherwise ready to let gravity have its way.

Good point, Paul.

I feel that some pilots get into trouble in the region of "minimum level flight speed". Below this speed, the gyroplane will descend even at max power.

In helis, it is possible to overpitch/overtorque the rotors and the heli keeps descending with more collective application; and the rotor rpm can actually drop in un-governed rotor systems.
 
ALL IN, you said you have hung a twin engine navajo on its props at 20 Knots,really!!!



Best regards,
 
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