Floats on a gyroplane???

[EZglyder]

Floats on a gyroplane???

I'm new, retiring this year, and would like a gyroplane with floats because of where I'm moving airports /airstrips are not convenient but a boat dock is right down the street. I will number my questions so that anyone can chime in on whichever one.... Thank you for your help.
1] it seems that only autogyro can sell a fully built, certified, ready to fly gyroplane here in the US with most everyone else having to certify it has experimental amateur built which I am fine with. Question.... As experimental do you have a lot of liberties. I am assuming a weight credit is given because of the floats to still keep the weight below 1320 I can get a sport pilot license and operate on that.????
2] being experimental would also have the liberty of having someone like https://badasspowersports.com/ do some modifications to get the horse power of a Rotax 916is up to 180hp. being on floats, I would like to be able to improve takeoff distance and off set the drag penalty that the floats will impose.
3] I have looked at the autogyro MTO and Cavalon amphibs(also the tercel) as options but now with the new ELA aviation "REVO" available for purchase I would really love to go that route if it could be put on floats. I'm sure the manufacturer might not want to do that, however, if it is experimental I should be able to have someone knowledgeable install floats on that gyroplane is well should I not?? I would be very partial to this gyroplane because of its ability to pre-rotate up to 500 rpm's w/ a Rotax916is which should significantly shorten the takeoff distance, where other gyroplane's only pre-rotate up to about 300. Any ideas or comments on this??
4} does anyone know a mechanic or gyroplane builder that could install the floats for me it would know about these things.??
5} https://badasspowersports.com/ they also sell Yamaha epex engines 200hp which might be an option to Rotax altogether as long as the science would fit inside the motor shroud.
6] has anyone had any experience flying a float gyroplane??? What was it like??

Thank you very much for your help!!!

 

[Aerofoam]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but floats on a gyroplane are a really bad idea.
The drag being low, is just asking for a PPO condition and a gyroplane designed specifically for amphib. use has not been built.
I think it could be designed to be safer than just putting a gyroplane on floats, but it would still have the penalty of more drag much lower than the vertical center of gravity, especially while interfacing with water. Some sort of flying boat hull with sponsons would be a good step in the right direction.

I almost never say never, but this one has not arrived yet.........

 

[Jimbob]

Why so negative?

here are some gyros on floats

 

[Doug Riley]

Some amazingly unsound configurations have flown on gyros. They work until they don't.

An old gyro friend of mine, Harlan Gage, barely escaped with his life when his float Bensen experienced an uncommanded dive into Long Island Sound.

On this forum, we've been calling this type of crash a "drag-over."

One fellow did exhibit a mono-float gyro with sponsons decades ago at Oshkosh. It did fly, but seems to have been a mere flash n the pan.

 

[Abid]

In my opinion, a gyroplane can be put on floats and flown safely with compromises. The VNE has to be reduced. There is a tipping point where drag increases enough to potentially get you into a drag over. A good point is with floats there may be so much drag that you really cannot easily reach that speed anyway unless you dive with high power setting at a great angle down. But in reality VNE should be lowered by the builder. How much exactly would have to determine by testing on a specific configuration but it would be significant. Also, rough weather speed would have to set lower. A correctly shaped float would create some lift at speed providing some inertia relief. Generally, we take that to be 50% of the weight of the floats. The max takeoff weight cannot be blindly increased without considering the gyroplane's main structure for which you need a structural analysis or a static load test with the new weight. A third-party doing floats without manufacturer's involvement who has the data for this is in my opinion not Koshar and reduces the safety factory margin potentially to dangerous levels. Also, side slips and pedal turns may have speed restrictions and probably should be avoided given the enormous amount of side area floats add to the aircraft. This would be especially true on enclosed gyroplanes being put on floats (like this Cavalon). I actually think putting an enclosed gyroplane on floats requires more care than open or semi open gyroplanes. I would not recommend that without a full battery of test flights by the factory.

 

[TyroGyro]

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/383895

Amphibious gyrocopter winched from water after dramatic crash on NSW lake

Two men have escaped injury after the boat-helicopter hybrid overturned during a take-off attempt on Lake Macquarie.

www.abc.net.au

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/315283

Gyrocopter Kırım Geçirdi

Gyrocopter kırım geçirdi. TC-UYG tescilli iki kişilik denize inebilen gyrocopter Akbük’te kırıma uğradı. Pilot ve yolcu hafif yaralandı. https://twitter.com/muratherdemm/status/1669407036809854999

www.goklerdeyiz.net

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/199748

https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article67251432.html

 

[WaspAir]

I strongly suggest you get several hundred hours in a wheeled gyro first, and then reconsider floats. I have a Commercial seaplane certificate, susbstantial time as a Commercial pilot in helicopters on floats, and I am a Commercial / CFI in gyros, and I choose not to fly a float gyro. Slip-roll coupling is a big issue as is drag-over, for what amounts to little added utility. It's just a novelty in my book.

 

[EZglyder]

I strongly suggest you get several hundred hours in a wheeled gyro first, and then reconsider floats. I have a Commercial seaplane certificate, susbstantial time as a Commercial pilot in helicopters on floats, and I am a Commercial / CFI in gyros, and I choose not to fly a float gyro. Slip-roll coupling is a big issue as is drag-over, for what amounts to little added utility. It's just a novelty in my book.

Point taken....TY....I am surprised to see auto gyro (MTO & Cavalon) Offer these on floats. With a higher probability of accidents it will not be good for their advertising and name..

 

[EZglyder]

I strongly suggest you get several hundred hours in a wheeled gyro first, and then reconsider floats. I have a Commercial seaplane certificate, susbstantial time as a Commercial pilot in helicopters on floats, and I am a Commercial / CFI in gyros, and I choose not to fly a float gyro. Slip-roll coupling is a big issue as is drag-over, for what amounts to little added utility. It's just a novelty in my book.

Slip-roll coupling??? Could you briefly explain this place thank you!

 

[Mayfield]

here's an explanation. It gets in the weeds but is an interesting read.

Jim

 

[EZglyder]

here's an explanation

Jim

TY!!

 

[WaspAir]

In simplest terms, imagine you push the left pedal to start a yaw with nose going to the left. This exposes lots of area on the right side of the aircraft to the oncoming airflow. Floats add lots of area down low, so there's added pressure below the c.g. and it rolls the aircraft to the right. Yaw to the left creates a roll to the right (adverse roll with yaw). You would need to add quite a bit of side area above the c.g. to balance the effect of the floats and keep the center of pressure near the center of gravity.

In mild cases it requires pilot understanding, vigilence, and timely corrections to maintain coordination. In extreme cases, it can be a handful.

 

[EZglyder]

In simplest terms, imagine you push the left pedal to start a yaw with nose going to the left. This exposes lots of area on the right side of the aircraft to the oncoming airflow. Floats add lots of area down low, so there's added pressure below the c.g. and it rolls the aircraft to the right. Yaw to the left creates a roll to the right (adverse roll with yaw). You would need to add quite a bit of side area above the c.g. to balance the effect of the floats and keep the center of pressure near the center of gravity.

In mild cases it requires pilot understanding, vigilence, and timely corrections to maintain coordination. In extreme cases, it can be a handful.

Makes sense.... Thank you!

 

[MikeBoyette]

Also if it’s coupled with an engine that induces a large amount of torque it can be fatal. If the aircraft is in a low G situation the torque and slip roll coupling can cause the gyro to roll inverted to the side. It’s like a toggle switch once it goes past the point there is no recovery. Its happened quite a few times most notably a few years ago during competition in Dubai to an MTO. So floats would exacerbate the problem.

 

[Eric S]

Surely someone good at calculating the numbers could come up with a ballpark VNE for a float gyro to keep it reasonably safe. Like doing a weight and balance on an airplane. Do a hang test, then calculate surface areas and distances from the CG to get the top, reasonably safe speed. 65 mph? 55mph?

It would take some discipline to stay under 55 mph in a gyro capable of flying 90 or better w/o floats, but if it gets you on the water, it could be a blast.

 

[Abid]

Surely someone good at calculating the numbers could come up with a ballpark VNE for a float gyro to keep it reasonably safe. Like doing a weight and balance on an airplane. Do a hang test, then calculate surface areas and distances from the CG to get the top, reasonably safe speed. 65 mph? 55mph?

It would take some discipline to stay under 55 mph in a gyro capable of flying 90 or better w/o floats, but if it gets you on the water, it could be a blast.

In a MTO Sport or similar gyro with floats whose frontal area s similar to puddle jumper floats. You’d be fine till at least 80 mph very conservatively. I would avoid heavy side slips and full pedal turns. Small ones to land in 8 to 10 knot crosswinds would be ok.

 

[WaspAir]

Surely someone good at calculating the numbers could come up with a ballpark VNE for a float gyro to keep it reasonably safe. Like doing a weight and balance on an airplane. Do a hang test, then calculate surface areas and distances from the CG to get the top, reasonably safe speed. 65 mph? 55mph?

It would take some discipline to stay under 55 mph in a gyro capable of flying 90 or better w/o floats, but if it gets you on the water, it could be a blast.

Hmmmm. And rattlesnakes make good pets if you just stay away from the fangs.

 

[bell206]

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/383895

Amphibious gyrocopter winched from water after dramatic crash on NSW lake

Two men have escaped injury after the boat-helicopter hybrid overturned during a take-off attempt on Lake Macquarie.

www.abc.net.au

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/315283

Gyrocopter Kırım Geçirdi

Gyrocopter kırım geçirdi. TC-UYG tescilli iki kişilik denize inebilen gyrocopter Akbük’te kırıma uğradı. Pilot ve yolcu hafif yaralandı. https://twitter.com/muratherdemm/status/1669407036809854999

www.goklerdeyiz.net

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/199748

https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article67251432.html

Other than the float there was minimal damage for a cartwheeling accident! Titanium gyro is pretty strong.

 

[Aerofoam]

View attachment 1162549
Other than the float there was minimal damage for a cartwheeling accident! Titanium gyro is pretty strong.

Holy crap it has a trampoline between the floats!!!!!
That's even more adverse sail area if the nose suddenly dips........

 

[Doug Riley]

If the tramp were aft only, it might actually help with pitch stability.

Rather than setting an artificially low VNE, at which the rotor is less efficient, build the thing with sufficient H-stab power so that it will not drag over about the pitch axis.

The force generated by an airfoil (such as a H-stab) increases as the square of airspeed, just as drag does.

Drag-over about the roll axis is tougher, requiring an awkward amount of dorsal fin area. Some early Cierva gyros even had a dorsal fin mounted ABOVE the rotorhead.

Some 70's float gyros even had "drag-around" instability in the YAW axis! This issue tends to rear its head only after the engine quits and the aircraft turns out to prefer flying bass-ackwards.

All of these problems can be explored cheaply and safely using scale models.