Flapping warning device

The attempt to automate everything so that anyone with a checklist can fly a gyro is worse than silly; it’s dangerous as proven by all the rollovers during takeoffs and landings.

I rate nosewheel steering linked to rudder pedals as among the more dangerous automation schemes. I’ve never heard of a Dominator rolling over because the pilot allowed the nosewheel to touch while holding rudder pedal.

Here’s a 1994 clip of my Italian friend, Pier Luigi D’Armi taking his first flight in my gyro with free castering nosewheel and steering via individual mainwheel brakes:


The brake pedals are arranged to function as heel brakes but Pier Luigi drops his feet down and uses them as toe brakes.
 
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I rate nosewheel steering linked to rudder pedals as among the more dangerous automation schemes. I’ve never heard of a Dominator rolling over because the pilot allowed the nosewheel to touch while holding rudder pedal.

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How is that automation? Have you heard of Dominator notorious duck walking. I have heard that dozens of times and seen it twice first hand and seen one rollover right here. Just because they are slipped under the rug and not reported does not mean it doesn't happen. Just FYI.
 
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This is an ongoing challenge for me as a CFI.

I had a client hit his tail without a tip over and when I called him after the mishap the first words out of his mouth were: “I did three things you told me not to do. I flew in winds that higher than I had flown in before, I let the tower rush me and I flew at a very busy airport where there is no place to land if things don’t work out. ” This man had flown and trained with two other CFIs that I have the greatest respect for and was a Private Pilot, Rotorcraft-Gyroplane pilot. He is also a 20,000 plus hour airline transport pilot.

A Calidus tip over from sailing a rotor on a touch and go was trained by one of the most through, rigid flight instructor I know and held a Sport Pilot, Gyroplane rating.

I had another client that with 15 hours of dual instruction on the day I was going to sign him off for his proficiency check ride do a touch and go in The Predator, center the cyclic and open the throttle. I have no doubts that if I had not been there he would have accelerated faster than the rotor and hit the tail.

Gyropedia has some thoughts on this that may prove helpful.

My feeling is that the American Ranger is one of the easiest gyroplane for pre rotation and takeoff out there.

I don't know if a warning gadget would be helpful.

I feel we have a desperate need to solve this mystery and come up with a solution.


Vance, I tell my students that they will have a minimum of 150 take-offs and landings before they will be able to handle those safely.
It doesn't matter how many hundreds of hours they have in fixed wings.
 
Dominator “duck walk” is caused by poor main wheel suspension geometry; -excess tire scrub and is initiated by yawed landing. It usually quits as the gyro straightens out and is totally unrelated to a free castering nosewheel.

Obfuscation.
 
Dominator “duck walk” is caused by poor main wheel suspension geometry; -excess tire scrub and is initiated by yawed landing. It usually quits as the gyro straightens out and is totally unrelated to a free castering nosewheel.

Obfuscation.

And what does linked nose wheel had to do with the topic of people flapping their rotors on takeoff by outrunning them. Obfuscation.
 
The hard-linked nosewheel-to-rudder is the other half of the Eurotub problem. Easily fixable, but not fixed. Why not?

After all, a technical fix would be a proper fix, as opposed to telling the pilot to keep the nose up, which clearly doesn't work.

I think it would be fair to say that all hard-linked systems have suffered this easily-fixed problem, not just Eurotubs.

I have only ever heard one good reason for a hardlink, from David Bird in Oz, who found it useful when taking off from rutted tracks.

I believe early models of MTOs in the UK had spring-link fitted after a number of rollovers in benign conditions, but I don't think later models have it.

Springs aren't expensive, rollovers are.

Even Bensen had springlink.
 
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My plans built Bensens had no linkage between rudder and nosewheel; steering via foot pegs on the nosewheel. Perhaps later Bensen plans showed the spring coupling.

My only experience with spring linkage came from flying a friend’s gyro. I found it quite annoying to drop the nosewheel while holding rudder and experiencing the sideways lurch although the spring coupling diminished the probability of a rollover.
 
A friend here in the US has operated his hard-linked nosegear ELA G8 for around 400 hours with no issues so it's not the ticking time bomb that many make it out to be.
Hard or semi hard linking is necessary on machines that use a single master cylinder to activate the brakes.
 
Regarding the 'duckwalk' issue, I had a video of one such, not a Dominator, but similar geometry. Took about 20 viewings to figure it out, but it was a blipping of the throttle in the flare that kicked it off, by causing a momentary yaw at touchdown. It settled down, but it was ugly, and I wouldn't be confident that a good outcome would always be the case.
 
A friend here in the US has operated his hard-linked nosegear ELA G8 for around 400 hours with no issues so it's not the ticking time bomb that many make it out to be.
Hard or semi hard linking is necessary on machines that use a single master cylinder to activate the brakes.
Could be that it is still ticking..... :)

But seriously, the fact that an individual has not succumbed to a booby trap does not mean the booby trap isn't there.

The MAX was doing fine for months....... until it wasn't.
 
Automobiles and trucks need hydraulic brakes, bicycles and gyros don’t.

My gyro in the clip above had individual scrub brakes acting on the main wheels and actuated by plastic lined bicycle brake cable. Nearly as smooth as hydraulic actuation and worked well everywhere except on wet grass.

I calculated the temperature rise of the brake pads for a full stop from 20 mph and found it to be insignificant.

Hydraulic brakes on gyros fall into the category of needless bells and whistles.
 
It has always puzzled me that some people are unable to understand that a raked fork has trail in the same way that a furniture caster does.

With a raked fork, the tire contact patch trails the projected steering axis in precisely the same way that as a furniture caster.
 
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It has always puzzled me that some people are unable to understand that a raked fork has trail in the same way that a furniture castor does.

With a raked fork, the tire contact patch trails the projected steering axis in precisely the same way that as a furniture caster.

I’m personally not sure I’ve ever seen a chair caster or shopping cart, etc. with a raked fork - all the ones I’ve seen have a vertical fork with a trailing axis, like the Magni, TAG, and AR-1 configuration.

I’m not an engineer, physicist, High School science teacher, or gyro manufacturer, but one thing that struck me about the sketches in post 26 of the ongoing crosswind takeoff discussion is that the amount of trail shown is correct - for when the axle is pointed straight ahead. But as the fork starts turning, depending on factors such as the width of the tire, the amount of rake, and the displacement of the axle, the amount of trail diminishes - and I think there even comes a point where part of the tire starts to go behind the steering axis (negative trail?) - and that proportion of the tire behind the turning axle progressively increases. My guess is that's well before 90 degrees of fork turn, especially for heavily-raked forks. For a vertical fork, that doesn't happen till more than 90 degrees of turn. I suspect that's why chairs and shopping carts are built as they are.

Something not said in all of this discussion (here and in the crosswind discussion) is the significance of the touchdown speed. At faster landing speed, more air is going across the rudder (making it more effective), so less pedal input is needed - and therefore there's less angle in the nosewheel for connected systems. Not only that, but the inertia of a faster landing means the nosewheel will be straightened out faster/easier and in the direction of travel. I truly think the bent keel plus the desire to touch down like a helicopter adds tremendously to landing issues in particular because of this. If people touch down with more speed, I suspect there'd be a lot less rollovers.

But back to the OP and the flapping warning device. The proposed device is waiting for the fire to already be started and hoping to stop the explosion (if you're hitting the teeter stops, you've already reached a critical amount of dyssymmetry). Fire prevention is always the best route! Training, of course, is essential. But if a gadget is wanted, wouldn't it be simpler to have one that sounds a buzzer if the wheels are turning AT ALL when the stick is not all the way back AND the rotor is below some safe-for-that-model number? That stops the pilot very early in the process and before the flap can develop.

I fly a Magni and these discussions are some of the biggest reasons I do so. Having pretty much only trained in a Magni, I was surprised to see people go on the runway (and tie it up) before even prerotating. I don't move from the runup area without at least 170RRPM and am using the stick back as a brake most of the time. WAAY more relaxed with regard to managing other traffic in the pattern, etc. I'm on the runway maybe 10 seconds and starting with 210-220RRPM, especially since I'm able to increase the RRPM as I'm taxiing. Flex cable prerotators are awesome, to me.

Another point on the departure issues: at Phil Harwood's class in AZ he talked about knowing where your gyro's throttle is set for cruise speed and using that setting for your first setting on takeoff. Then, once the nosewheel starts up, you can advance it to a climb power setting (but not necessarily full power) since the rotor has now proven it's generating enough lift. That seems very logical and even though I was informally doing something very similar before, his comments have me being more formal about what I'm doing. Incidentally, he speculated (and I think he's already being proven correct) that the 915s are going to result in more takeoff accidents because they're so powerful for the gyro and people will just push to full-throttle and exceed the rotor's ability to speed up. With my lowly 912, I really don't need to sweat that but it's definitely something to consider.
 
Something not said in all of this discussion (here and in the crosswind discussion) is the significance of the touchdown speed. At faster landing speed, more air is going across the rudder (making it more effective), so less pedal input is needed - and therefore there's less angle in the nosewheel for connected systems. Not only that, but the inertia of a faster landing means the nosewheel will be straightened out faster/easier and in the direction of travel. I truly think the bent keel plus the desire to touch down like a helicopter adds tremendously to landing issues in particular because of this. If people touch down with more speed, I suspect there'd be a lot less rollovers.

You are not wrong, but....

One of the gyro's top selling points is the ability to touch down at slow speed and stop quickly. Why sacrifice that for the benefit?? of hard linked
nosewheel-rudder.
 
I fly a Magni and these discussions are some of the biggest reasons I do so. Having pretty much only trained in a Magni, I was surprised to see people go on the runway (and tie it up) before even prerotating. I don't move from the runup area without at least 170RRPM and am using the stick back as a brake most of the time. WAAY more relaxed with regard to managing other traffic in the pattern, etc. I'm on the runway maybe 10 seconds and starting with 210-220RRPM, especially since I'm able to increase the RRPM as I'm taxiing. Flex cable prerotators are awesome, to me.

Well said. Benefits all the way. The flat disc prerotators are central to almost all of the takeoff problems. Been saying this for years, but farting against thunder.
 
Something not said in all of this discussion (here and in the crosswind discussion) is the significance of the touchdown speed. At faster landing speed, more air is going across the rudder (making it more effective), so less pedal input is needed - and therefore there's less angle in the nosewheel for connected systems. Not only that, but the inertia of a faster landing means the nosewheel will be straightened out faster/easier and in the direction of travel. I truly think the bent keel plus the desire to touch down like a helicopter adds tremendously to landing issues in particular because of this. If people touch down with more speed, I suspect there'd be a lot less rollovers.

In my opinion a faster touch down speed is at the heart of many of the gyroplane landing accidents. I feel the benefits of a faster touchdown are outweighed by the detriments.

The recent Tango tip over in Dublin, Texas based on a knowledgeable friend’s report appears to me to be a combination of fast touch down speed with a hard linked nose wheel.

Part of the practical test for Sport Pilot, Gyroplane is “Touches down smoothly, at a reduced forward airspeed beyond and within 200 feet of a specified point with no appreciable drift, and with the longitudinal axis aligned with the intended landing path.”

There is also the power off approach and accuracy landing in the Practical Test Standard for Sport Pilot, Gyroplane.
"1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to performing a power-off approach and accuracy landing.
2. Selects a reference point in the landing area for touchdown and reduces power to a zero-thrust position.
3. Adjusts glide path to terminate approach and touch down beyond and within 300 feet of the reference point."

The PTS is a minimum standard and I would hope most gyroplane pilots can cut it in half.

The Magni gyroplanes I have flown have plenty of rudder authority for touching down at slow speed with a cross wind.

At the risk of stating the obvious if I am stopped the direction of the nose wheel is pointed is not relevant.
 
experience with spring linkage came from flying a friend’s gyro. I found it quite annoying to drop the nosewheel while holding rudder and experiencing the sideways lurch although the spring coupling diminished the probability of a rollover.

It needed a softer spring link.
Mine is quite soft, but I've seen some that are nearly rigid.
 
It never bothered me, steering a Bensen with foot pegs on the nosewheel; steered just like the first vehicle I ever operated, a tricycle. In fact, while learning to fly a gyro with Bensen flight training manual in hand, the rudder pedals seemed backwards and I considered crossing the rudder cables just as the Wright Brothers had done.

The Wright Brothers crossed the rudder cables to make their airplane steer in the same way as as a bicycle; their use of a rudder bar resembled a bicycle handlebar.

Glen Curtiss came along, didn’t cross the cables and taught himself fly with reverse control relative to a bicycle. It’s been that way ever since.
 
I fly a Magni and these discussions are some of the biggest reasons I do so. Having pretty much only trained in a Magni, I was surprised to see people go on the runway (and tie it up) before even prerotating. I don't move from the runup area without at least 170RRPM and am using the stick back as a brake most of the time. WAAY more relaxed with regard to managing other traffic in the pattern, etc. I'm on the runway maybe 10 seconds and starting with 210-220RRPM, especially since I'm able to increase the RRPM as I'm taxiing. Flex cable prerotators are awesome, to me.
None of this is specific to a Magni; my sequence with the MTO was always to begin prerotating at the hold short line and to maintain the stick in the forward position until the RRPM exceeded 160, bringing the stick back gently and then to progressively advance the throttle in a smooth fashion for takeoff.
In all this discussion on different gyros, castering vs non-castering etc, it's crazy to me how rigid everyone is in their opinions about one design or another; rather than emphasizing not only good technique, but also good technique that is specific to the aircraft type. This type of close mindedness does not exist in the fixed wing world where so many different types of aircraft exist, all with different flight characteristics. Nosewheel, taildragger, castering, non-castering, floatplanes with floats or a hull, high drag, low drag and on and on. And they all fly differently where doing something in one would not pass muster in another, and get you in trouble. The key is to learn to fly, then learn to fly your type specific aircraft and practice, practice, practice.
Yes and if someone gets in a 915 powered gyro and tries to fly it like a 912, trouble will ensue.
 
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