First flight / new gyro pilot = too dangerous

[BEN S]

In the military public humiliation is a prime motivator. Maybe we need to ostracize people who don't use CFI's to learn.

 

[StanFoster]

The big problem with self training is that few have the patience to follow Bensens manual, plus nowadays instructors are available.

 

[barnstorm2]

Not feasible and banning and regulating will hurt more the sport than a few self destructing grown ups!

If we do not stop the self-destructing grown ups the FAA will and possibly us along with them.

Also consider what a fatality does to chapters and our sport.

Chapter 40 once was the largest PRA chapter with hundreds of members. Now only a dozen members. What happened? From what I can tell a few well publicized fatalities.

In this country we are becoming accustomed not taking personal responsibility for our actions and it had penetrated the flying community too.

Agreed.

.

 

[Steve McGowan]

Say WHAT TIM....

Must be a lil tippin,,

 

[choppergabor]

Tim I wish I had the answers for the disappearance of membership and the lack of interest....I really don't
It is sad and very disappointing seeing the once thriving and blooming chapters fading away. I can't explain it I am too new to the sport. I know I am trying to attract people as president of the Sunstate Wing and Rotor Club PRA 26 that is also one of my duties.
And God knows I am trying everything from social media through ex students of mine and Instructor colleagues. But again when we get to the instruction part and building and information about the sport it seems that this forum is pretty much the best source that will collect all the information they need. They don't want to commit to being a member of anything. They rather hang out at the airport with guys in the know and read the forum and gather info as much as they can. Hell some of them don't even register with the forum just keep lurking .... We can't really break this habit I think...... People want their privacy as they don't want to be judged or jumped on if the slightest possibility of not following the rules arises.
I can understand them not wanting to fight over their decisions with people who have no business to question their intentions. As I said they are grown ups. Yes we will pay the price for their mistakes when the FAA finally decides to clamp down on our sport.
But again that will only increase the illegal flying! Because people will not stop flying gyros.They won't register them nor will they obey the weight limits and basic flight rules. This is just a direct consequence of a human reaction to unfair authority regulations
So there is no clear answer to this problem. And even with all the precautions and training and test flown machines with experience S H I T can still happen! We just have to make this attractive to new people and give them all the possible information that will actually lead them to do the right thing. I say it's straight forward info about everything. And then let them decide for themselves. And hope for the best.....that is all we can do.....It's very much like raising a child. You give them all the tools and info....and after the door closes behind them when they leave you hope for the best and you hope that all the things you drilled into their heads they retained enough portion of to keep them out of trouble.

 

[okikuma]

Hi Antony,

Thanks for the update on FAR 61.217. That's the first I heard of this latest change concerning BGI, AGI, & IGI. That's what I love about aviation. I continue to learn something new.

Wayne

 

[GyroDel]

SandL has the right idea just the wrong way to go about it. To try and get Airports into some sort of endeavor like he suggests, the only way they would take on that extra burden would be by federal regulation and we don’t want that to happen. It sends a bad message to the feds that we are not able to take care of ourselves and need an outside influence to make things work.

There is no way that we can make any rules to compel any new builder/pilot to get training or inspections. Then maybe the answer is not a way to make them to do it but to recognize them for doing it and a carrot on a stick to complete it.

The biggest thing for the year has been attending the convention. This may kill my idea not knowing if the PRA could even do or want to do it. Bear with me while I lay the ground work for this idea to work.

It starts on the chapter level. The chapter elects, appoints or by volunteering, a member would oversee the inspections of newly build, rebuilt or purchased gyros for the clubs membership. Passing gyros would get a log book sign off or possibly an inspection sticker for their gyro. The gyro would then be eligible for the program. (For lack of a better work) All club gyros should get a sticker it would show the new guy that it the thing to do and a sense of pride that his gyro meets the standards just like the rest of the club.

The second part would be on the CFI’s once the pilot can complete his training and gets his sign off then the pilot would also be eligible. Nothing extra for the CFI’s to do. Since there would not be a way to sticker the new pilot other than a tattoo we will not got there. The PRA could have something in the monthly magazine to list and give them some accolades.

So far we have a way to get the inspections done and new chapter members if it is adopted and ran by this idea. There is a way to recognize new pilots and make them feel great by printing there name for all of use to see. There are now three positive ways to promote chapter membership, inspections and proper training by CFI’s. These may work in part but to pull them together may or not be allowed.

If the PRA has the power or can legally restrict persons from attending the convention at Mentone. If they can then they would have the ability to make it mandatory for pilots and gyros landing at Mentone to be signed off and to be flying a gyro with an inspection sticker.

Additionally we could encourage any builder that hasn’t been inspected to trailer in his gyro and get it inspected. Then to recognize the builder at some point to announce to the crowd they have passed.

Certificated aircraft already have inspections and licensed pilots would not need to comply by this.

Also to not upset the longtime members that followed the Benson or some other form of training I am in no way trying to exclude you. Or make it a burden by suggesting that you would have to receive more training to get the sign off. There would be a grandfather clause for you. It is intended for the new to the sport persons like me to promote training and inspections to hopefully save lives. It could be expanded to recognize the completion of steps throughout their training to keep them on track.

This idea is a rough draft of a way to encourage participation to get builders and pilots in a program that is put in place by the PRA and its members before the FAA does.

 

[Steve McGowan]

Lil info for Ya !

Lil info for Ya !

At this time the FAA has No Personell that is GYRO Current to observe or sign off a Potential gyro pilot. That I am aware of, please correct me if I'm RONG.

FAA Safety Inspector Jarred McFarland of the Little Rock FSDO died of a stroke a few months ago.. Ron Menzie, Jim Mayfield and Terry Brandt is the only DPE's available, that I am aware of. Again,, Correct me if I'm RONG..

The Gyro Flight Instructors are looked at as if they are Money Mongers,
by many because gyro's are looked at as TOYS.. (No Instructions Needed.) oh well,,..
Give Me Your Money,, I Will Pray For You,, Kinda Thang

The PRA At One Time ,,,would not ALLOW anyone to instruct at a PRA Event, "UNLESS", they were a Full Fledged RotorCraft GyroPlane CFI,, with the Papers to Prove it,,,but over time that has changed. Atleast I think so..

The Old Guy's that has been around for 10 years or more know this. And the CFI's I am speaking of have a very strong Moral Code, (and I believe the Younger ones too)

" YOUR MONEY ISN'T ANY GOOD" If the student won't follow The Rules and AGREEMENT, when we first start,, then I won't instruct them any longer, and they sure as Hell won't get a sign off from me.

I personally fly every students gyro, checking it out, AFTER ITS INSPECTED and before they even taxi it and or make suggestions to OR Not to purchase a particular gyro. yes the New European Designs Gyros are more stable, HOWEVER, if you take the time to LOOK..

All are ALMOST Exactly the same Rotor Design,,, No Not Name Brand,, but they are all Semi-Ridged..

Every last one will Flap,and Teeter in Rotation,, and EveryOne of them will Bunt Over If Not Flown Correctly.. Be it an RAF, Bensen, MTO, Magni, Domimator ,Butterfly..WHATEVER..

The TOP is the Same, NoMatter WHAT the Cabin is called.
YOU Are Flying The Blades..

"NOW"

SIT DOWN,,,,, SHUT UP,,,,, AND THINK ABOUT IT !

If this sounds a bit harsh,, HopeFully you'll live to get over it ...

 

[ferranrosello]

Steve, I understand your post. To fly gyros is needed knowledge and training. And the lack of these two requirements is the cause of majority of accidents (fatal or not) that the gyro community is suffering.

But a well designed gyro, with a balanced horizontal tail surface, does not bunt over. MTO's, Magni's and ELA's don't bunt over. But is still possible to get killed on them...

Ferran

 

[Brent Drake]

I believe Steve. I think any gyro made or purchased can and will. Here is a video of a nice gyro that appears to have had the stick pushed forward to go down. Or? I'm open for an opinion. Most may have seen this, it's an older video.
Gyro Crash - YouTube

 

[barnstorm2]

But a well designed gyro, with a balanced horizontal tail surface, does not bunt over. MTO's, Magni's and ELA's don't bunt over. But is still possible to get killed on them...

Correct if your definition of Bunt = Power Push Over.

However, Bunt is NOT a technical term and could refer to any number of blade unloading events.

A properly designed gyro will not PPO. But it could do very nasty things with unloaded blades that some refer to as a 'bunt'.

I believe Steve. I think any gyro made or purchased can and will. Here is a video of a nice gyro that appears to have had the stick pushed forward to go down. Or? I'm open for an opinion. Most may have seen this, it's an older video.
Gyro Crash - YouTube

Brent, I agree with the analysis of Doug Riley, Udi and Chuck B. that the video accident was likely a Cabin-related "drag-over" .

However, the concept is correct.

Push the stick forward in such a way that you unload the blades and survival is unlikely.

.

 

[cburg]

Nowadays, the limiting factor is the Operational Limitations, not the FAR. The FAR allows it, but all new EAB Ops Limits FAA language do not. A person would need to purchase an older EAB gyro with the old Ops Limits FAA language.

Chuck

I don't know that is why I put the question out.

If the intent was to allow someone who builds a machine so unique that it does not neatly fall into any existing category and class to be able to fly it with out a catch 22...

Then does the rule in "spirit" apply to a machine that is clearly a standard airplane or gyro?

Perhaps it does? Or perhaps it is a loophole that lets some people fly a craft legally that they don't cat/class training for, even when in all honesty it would be that cat/class if it where certified?

I don't know what scope the rule makers had in mind.

Perhaps it is already a non-issue.

If gyros are being given airworthines certs with a phase I restriction on non-cat/class pilots then we have another ball game.

I wonder if this is some add-in added by a DAR as appropriate, or a new boiler plate that must be used?

.
.

.

 

[barnstorm2]

Nowadays, the limiting factor is the Operational Limitations, not the FAR. The FAR allows it, but all new EAB Ops Limits FAA language do not. A person would need to purchase an older EAB gyro with the old Ops Limits FAA language.

Chuck

Any idea when the ar and dars went to this new template?

.

 

[gyroplanes]

I think you guys are confusing the older ELSA Ops Limits with the current ELSA & EAB limits. The older ELSA specified cat & class, single, two place, tandem, etc as a breakdown. I don't believe this is the case anymore. I don't get any calls for other than EAB since the FAA's "Wild West" period ended years ago.

 

[EI-GYRO]

IIRC, that japanese video showed a machine fitted with skis, which possibly
exacerbated whatever pitch instability the pod caused.

 

[Master Roda]

IIRC, that japanese video showed a machine fitted with skis, which possibly
exacerbated whatever pitch instability the pod caused.

That's the way I remember it.

 

[SandL]

SandL has the right idea just the wrong way to go about it. To try and get Airports into some sort of endeavor like he suggests, the only way they would take on that extra burden would be by federal regulation and we don’t want that to happen. It sends a bad message to the feds that we are not able to take care of ourselves and need an outside influence to make things work..

I was just remembering an experience
I arrived at Henstridge airfield here in the Uk with my gyro on a trailer. first stop was the ATC / airport manager guy
"Hi, may I cross the active runway and go to the gyro hanger please ?, I have a radio "
"yes certainly that will be £10.00 please and call for clearence to cross when you are at the hold"
"£10.00 ? I dont intend flying today I have just dropped in for an inspection"
"Sir your aircraft is on my airfield so I have to charge you, that's how we make our money, you have your aircraft on my land if you dont want to pay please go elsewhere."
I paid up and crossed all was ok, I was just surprised.
Anyway the point is it is his land, his business and he is in overall control of all airfield activities including who takes off and when.
If he knowingly allows illegal flights (drunk pilots ?) to take place he has some liability I would think. Also he does not want his airfield surrounded by crashed aircraft, it's bad for business. I guess ATC should know if it's a first flight of a new build by a first time pilot, to get crash crews on a higher alert status if nothing else.
I'm not suggesting enforced prohibition just maybe they also would have an opinion.

 

[SandL]

There is no way that we can make any rules to compel any new builder/pilot to get training or inspections. Then maybe the answer is not a way to make them to do it but to recognize them for doing it and a carrot on a stick to complete it.

The second part would be on the CFI’s once the pilot can complete his training and gets his sign off then the pilot would also be eligible. Nothing extra for the CFI’s to do. Since there would not be a way to sticker the new pilot other than a tattoo we will not got there. The PRA could have something in the monthly magazine to list and give them some accolades.

If the PRA has the power or can legally restrict persons from attending the convention at Mentone. If they can then they would have the ability to make it mandatory for pilots and gyros landing at Mentone to be signed off and to be flying a gyro with an inspection sticker.

Additionally we could encourage any builder that hasn’t been inspected to trailer in his gyro and get it inspected. This idea is a rough draft of a way to encourage participation to get builders and pilots in a program that is put in place by the PRA and its members before the FAA does.

I have picked some interesting bits from you post above.

Maybe the training CFI or inspector or local chapter could "insist" that all new builders complete an on line accident awareness course as part of the licence sign off. PRA membership or new build inspection.
In the UK Hot air baloon students have to attend pas exams in Nav, Met, law, human performance legally ... a land owner awareness course is "optional and advisable". covering your rights, land owner rights, access, animal welfare, damage compensation, crowd control etc. this is not a legal part of the licence, but no examining instructor will sign off a General flying test unless the land awareness course has been completed.

a half hour infront of a PC listing accidents and reasons
EG
crow hops are usefull in a training program but at this early stage you can throw away all you dreams and years of hard work in a flash
there have been XXX examples of this in recent years
Mr X spent 2 years building a beautifl XXX he lived a long distance from his nearest instructor so decided to just do a few hops to get the feel of the machine. The flight ended in disaster when the craft rolled over, destroying the cabin, blades, mast, prop, instrument panel and axle. those few minutes cost him loss of pride , a 1 year delay in traing $5,000 a broken hand and crushed spine. there have been 20 students this year who self taught of which 7 thought it's only a short hop into the air only to come to grief.
page 2 Mr Y decided to hop his newly built machine. It went higher than expected as the trim was set incorrectly and not having the experience, did not know what to expect. unfortunately the aircraft crashed in it's first flight.
This problem has been identified is xxx incidents in the last 5 years.

Tail stickers sound good, insurance companies could raise the 3rd party insurance by say 10% then give a 10% discount to all who have completed the accident awareness course. That way the insurance companies are offering the good build, good training to the highest risk group and penalise the highest risk elements.
just thoughts !

 

[Gyro Junky]

Great read at this thread. Spot on with all points considered. If I may be so bold as to offer my perspective as a low time pilot... 1) Experienced CFI/pilot/builder for test flights-absolutely! (Thanks Mike Burton) 2) Aircraft review and critique-an expected must 3) Transitional guidance-don 't leave home without it.

I might add, 4) patience and baby steps. Has been essential in my training, or should I say practice, as a catch all for the inevitable gaps and oversights for the pilot's ability and machine. 5) Good ADM, which importance has been made evident in so many other threads.

 

[NoWingsAttached]

Responding to the first post on this thread, for my first time:

I came up to a guy at a little fly-in, offloading his gyrocopter. I looked over his gyro for a minute or two and found the push tube Heim joints to be bent ~30*. I flat out told him he couldn't fly like that. He actually, seriously, expressed that he was going to fly it. I told him gently no, you cant' fly it like that.

He sought a second opinion. He got it.

After the bearing joints were replaced he flew safely and we all had a good time.

It is within everyone's power to say no, to ground a pilot and/or gyrocopter if we see it is unworthy at the time for normal ops and testing. You don't have to be the "Air Boss" or anything like that. You dont' need to be heavy. But it is everyone's responsibility and duty to step up and shut down any unsafe operation. Anything less is neglect.

Safety is no accident. And if a man don't know his limits, his friends better had.