First Build Advice Needed

Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
All,

Need a bit of advice, I'm looking at getting started in the next 4-6 months on a Gyro Build. the wife finally consented for me me to spend some money and get started soon. Thanks to my son the mechanic, I have a Subaru engine (EJ-25, 2.5L, 116Kw or 155Hp, fuel injected) he bought a write off hulk for 600$USD for parts for himself and gave me the engine.the criterion for advice /opinions I need for a kit are.

a. 1. Suitability for use in Australia at a future date.
a. 2. any import considerations for Oz?

b. designs that can use the EJ-25 engine or if it needs to be scrapped and go with another engine.
c. I'm not looking for a canopy or covered cockpit.
d. and pros/cons over single or dual seating.
e. anywhere I should look for further information.
f. or Give up looking for a kit and Build from scratch, and use that M.E. Degree I paid all those HECS fees for.

Best Regards,
Jeff Mitchell
"Hattrick"
 

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
2,989
Location
Whitewater KS
Aircraft
Butterfly Aurora N5560Z / Titanium Explorer N456TE & N488TE/ - trained in MTOsport 446QT/488FB
Total Flight Time
783
Take a look at Larry Neal's Butterfly kits... @ www.thebutterflyllc.com/

We have a 300+ HP tandem (Subaru powered) Turbo Golden ready to fly. and planning an Aurora build this winter.
We plan on taking these to Australia eventually.
We like the Butterfly brand features of centerline thrust design, rugged all-terrain GForce landing gear and short take-off capability with the MLS pre rotators.
See Greg Mitchell's current thread on hands off flying - also very stable flying design.
Competitively priced -- 7 models to choose from!

Jim & Chris Toevs


http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/
 

fiveboy

I FLY THE JUNGLE JET!
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,324
Location
Panama City Central America
Aircraft
AC Tandem Elite F30
Total Flight Time
Almost 200 hours
I fly an Air Command Tandem Elite with a 2.5 engine. They are also found on RAf and other machines.I believe you cannot find a more reliable or sturdy engine. The Air command factory now sends them out with 2.5. I have 165 hp and dont think I will ever get near using it all. The red line for the engine is like 6400 rpm but my red line is 5400. I cruise at 38-3900 and climb at 4000 - 43000. It uses relatively little gas. I have a reground camshaft from Delta Cam and the engine was rebuilt by CCR with heavier racing springs. The cam is designed to boost low and mid range torque. I am about to install a torque roll spring as under power its considerable. I have been flying 27ft DW but am about to install 30' RAF blades. I cant wait! I say fly EJ 2.5 all day long! I barely make my engine sweat. I have a Russian PSRU and Kool Prop 39" four blade Ukrainian prop that pumps out power and thrust (Air Trikes Canada). Here is the power plant part.:yo: If you have questions write to me offline. I have taken a vow of relative silence on the forum and my aversion to hyena pack attacks.
 

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Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
Thanks Mates, this will give me a bit to chew on! Thanks again for the responses!
 

PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,552
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex 582
Total Flight Time
FW: 200 Gyro: 51
Jeff,

I didn't see anyone mention it, but if you're not sure yet whether you want more than one seat, the Subaru 2.5L might be way more engine than you need or want.

With the required accessories it will be 300 pounds or more, and that's as much as many entire single-seat gyros. While it's obviously not an issue in terms of power-to-weight ratio, the fun handling qualities of a light single-place gyros may be lost if you put a 300-pound engine on it, along with the larger rotor that would require.
 

Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
@ Scott - I will be building it in the States, I have a few more years (5-7) here before I head back over the pond.

@ Paul - Thanks for the recommendation, the single / dual seat is up in the air at the moment, more on the wife's proclivities than on mine. whether she wants to go up in her words "the thing that shouldn't fly" or not. My thinking is that I make a single seat at the moment, and then talk her in to a dual seat later. If that's the case, then I'll save the EJ for the dual.
 
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WHY

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
4,384
Location
miami,oklahoma
Aircraft
Ercoupe and Cessna 150, 152, 172, 140, Aeronca,7ac, Citabria,Chief,Piper PA11,PA12
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215
Hi Jeff

If you are looking at a single seat, set tight for a few months and watch the Genesis !!

Tony
 

Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
Just an update here...

The wife has decided that I shall build a single seat, and put the EJ engine in storage. My conditions on this was that I could go out and get a Rotax when the time came, and she has agreed.

The milling machine and lathe are out of storage, and found all of my bitsa's that go with them. I was stoked that I found out one of my mates at work is an A&P, and a millwright to boot, his eyes glazed over, and he started frothing when I talked to him about the forthcoming build.

and of this morning I have reserved my N Number ending in what else AU.

I'll get a build post going when I start everything up.

Regards,
Jeff Mitchell
 

Chuck Roberg

Gyro's are more fun
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
3,505
Location
Naperville, IL
Aircraft
SnoBird Tandem Gyro, Robinson R-22, Assorted Fixed Wing
Total Flight Time
1500
Just a reminder. When your getting ready for your airworthiness inspection make sure you changed your N-numbers from reserved to assigned. The inspector can not do the airworthiness inspection with reserved numbers.
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
7,681
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
One of the things to consider on a single is the HP of the engine. It does of course depend on the weight of your machine however it has been my experience that having got through training one will want to begin expanding the envelope gradually.

I have now had the experience of two singles where the power became an issue ie not enough.

A Bensen with a 503 and which struggled, this later replaced with a 532. And the Hornet with the 503 which performs OK as the dropped keel allowed us to use almost the biggest diameter prop for the engine and get the most out of the engine. However it could do with a bit more oomph especialy in the warmer weather and with 10galls of gas.
 

CLS447

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
6,320
Location
Reading, PA
Aircraft
Air Command 503 & Air Command SxS /EJ2.5
Total Flight Time
Aprox 400 gyro
Leigh, I could always use more power but my 503DCDI works great for me with a 60" Ivo.

Jeff, which Rotax were you thinking about ? Is the 503 still available ?

You might want to hurry if that is the engine that you want. I now see that you are gonna be in Denver.........you are probably gonna need something bigger.....Right guys ?
 

Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
503 is still available (37kW engine, 50hp). I clock in a about 154 Lbs, engine at 110lbs, 5 US Gals of fuel is 30.4 lbs, rotors and airframe are the only thing I don't know about at this time. I can infer but that as you know can lead to trouble.

As it is my first build I'm looking at the Gyrobee, so far the plans haven't given me much consternation, and looks to be quite lightweight from a construction side.

it would be close on the P/W Ratio, but I think I need to get some advice from the guys down at the local PRA Chapter.

on the upside there is a nice 2nd hand market here with snowmobile engines as well as personal watercraft, so committing now to an engine is not really needed until I have more facts.
 

Hattrick

Newbie
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
43
Location
Melbourne, Au; Residing: Denver, Co
Aircraft
Have flown; T-38; RF-5A; 150 Aerobat; 172 Skyhawk; King Air
Total Flight Time
2,200+ Fixed Jet; 1,200 Fixed S/MEL; 35 Sailplane; 0 Rotor
Well, I did some math today and due to the elevation here in Denver, it looks like to run a 503 I will have to swing a 60 inch prop. The gyrobee will not accommodate it but it looks like the hornet airframe will. As for the rotor blades, napkin calcs come out to be ~26 foot for 5300' MSL (I bet the Boyette's have a nice calculator that would prove useful)

off to scour threads for Hornet builds. Thanks all for the PM's!

Regards,
Jeff Mitchell
 

RotorTom

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
847
Location
Colorado
Aircraft
Enstrom 480B, CTLS, Ercoupe
Total Flight Time
5000+
Yo Jeff ... you are a stone's throw from Colorado builders and tinkerers and gyro or helicopter pilots! Send me your phone number and I'll hook you up.

Dr. Bill Clem (KFTG) is building an awesome gyro!

Mike Bantum (Colorado/Ohio part timer) has done just about everything.

Todd (Springs) is a great fabricator.

Mark Shook (Springs) is an all-around good guy with a lot of contacts.

Dick (KFTG) knows a little about everything.

Mark T. (KFTG) has a lot of experience.

Dennis Pierce runs Colo HeliOps (KBJC).

and I have restored and built many aircraft ... and always have an empty seat in the Enstrom 480B.

Come shoot the breeze some time.
 

PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,552
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex 582
Total Flight Time
FW: 200 Gyro: 51
Jeff, get with the Chapter 38 guys, especially Thomas Fernandez, who built a GyroBee. He started with a 503 and found it was marginal for your elevation, and upgraded to a 582.

Thomas will also be at Rotors Over The Rockies here in Utah June 7-9.
 

Dirtydog

Best seat in the house!
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
2,297
Location
South, SC
Aircraft
Dogbee / Gyrobee
Total Flight Time
18 duel/ 55 hrs in the Dogbee
PW_Plack : I think he started with a MZ-202 and then went to the 582.
 

RotorTom

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
847
Location
Colorado
Aircraft
Enstrom 480B, CTLS, Ercoupe
Total Flight Time
5000+
Come to our fly-in

Come to our fly-in

Jeff, get with the Chapter 38 guys, especially Thomas Fernandez, who built a GyroBee. He started with a 503 and found it was marginal for your elevation, and upgraded to a 582.

Thomas will also be at Rotors Over The Rockies here in Utah June 7-9.
We are also having a "Fly-In":

It's on May 19th
2012 C.R.A. EVENTS
Rocky Mountain Freedom Fly in
Meadow Lake Airport - Colorado Springs Colorado
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
7,681
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Jeff, my son and I enjoyed the Hornet build. It certainly gave us enough room for a 62'' prop, the 503 will go to 63'' with the B box and we could have fitted it, however the Warp Drive guy at the factory advised us not to go to the limit as the thrust gain with the extra inch is not that much.

If we did it again I would go for the tall tail that Dennis Shoemacker, building 2 Hornets, is doing on his Hornet build here on the Forum rather than the one Don Shoebridge has designed. I think the one Don designed is definitely prettier, however I do not have as crisp a response with it as I do on the Bensen, and 'think' the tall tail would be even better than the Bensen type. I do not however have any tall tail experience so that is a very qualified opinion.

I do like the suspension Don designed it works very well. The machine is very stable, tracks well on the runway in a crosswind. We came in at 350lbs and went with 23' Dragon Wings, for sea level operations in Fla with 2 tanks that can take up to 10 galls. The Dragon wings are light rotors and perform well but do need a prerotator.

At Denver I would look at a 532/582 as the weight is similar to the 503 to have the extra 10 horses, but yes you do have to add the radiator but it isn't much. I am however about another 50lbs heavier and on these machines every pound does count.

Don apparent took down his Hornet site with all the build logs but there is a Hornet builder Darren who saved them all and is presently building a Hornet at Zephyrhills.
 
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