First AR-1 exported to Canada (enclosed)

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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The first AR-1C (enclosed convertible) went to Alberta, Canada. It was registered here in the US as Exp-AB
The finalized version has a removable dorsal fin that attached to the front of existing tail for when the canopy increasing yaw stability. It comes off when canopy is taken off. Three more orders with canopy coming in a few weeks fpr Pennsylvania, Minnesota and Wisconsin and deliveries coming up for end of the month in open configuration for California (LA) and Tampa, Florida.
New total carbon fiber option available now for $2250 where almost all composite parts are made with carbon fiber (save vertical stab due to com antenna in it and the area behind the instrument panel due to GPS and ADSB antenna installations there). Saves 20 to 22 pounds of weight per unit and is much stronger and of course looks cool too.
 

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eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
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The increased tail volume is very nicely done.looks great and will work great.
The different material used for the tail because of the antenna placement has made me
understand why my radio reception has been not as good as it use to be,its the carbon fiber rotors.
Its amazing sometimes where you can get answers to you problem,thanks Fara.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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eddie;n1139589 said:
The increased tail volume is very nicely done.looks great and will work great.
The different material used for the tail because of the antenna placement has made me
understand why my radio reception has been not as good as it use to be,its the carbon fiber rotors.
Its amazing sometimes where you can get answers to you problem,thanks Fara.
Eddie: I would have thought that carbn fiber rotors would not have made a significant difference on send and receive of an antenna at the tail but I am not an expert on it. We were fortunate enough to have a customer who is an EE and was getting carbon fiber option and his specialization is RFI and he used software to model all the elements and he told us which areas not to use carbon fiber in to get optimum antenna spread and performance. Thanks Russ Croman
 

EdL

Comm Rotor Gyro, ASEL
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eddie;n1139589 said:
The different material used for the tail because of the antenna placement has made me
understand why my radio reception has been not as good as it use to be,its the carbon fiber rotors.
Hi Eddie

First, I’m not at all a radio expert.

While I can understand a difference between (conductive) carbon fiber and fiberglass for the hull, it would seem a carbon fiber rotor would be no more conductive than an aluminum one - unless you had wooden blades before 😁. Not sure the rotor was the cause of your issues.

/Ed
 

eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
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Ed that's the first thing that came to mind because I always had good transmission until I changed blades,I have had aluminum and fiberglass

and when I changed to the carbon fiber ones my transmissions have became spotty

Your probably right though, whenever something changes I blame it on any other recent changes that have been made...
 

NJpilot

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This is good to see. I questioned adding the surface area of an enclosure without countering it's negative stability effects.

One could say the same thing about the ELA Eclipse and Trixy Princess, except they were first designed as enclosed, so one would expect them to be more stable when the enclosure is removed.

I recently learned something about Magni's lack of an enclosed tandem gyro. I saw in a youtube video of a Magni rep that they tried for 7 years to create basically an enclosed M-22. It was called the M-23, but it never met Magni's standards for stability. The M-24 Orion side by side was Magni's solution for an enclosed gyro ultimately. So according to Magni an enclosed tandem is an unsolvable problem stability wise.

Are Magnis that much more stable compared to others' enclosed tandem gyros?

John
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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NJpilot;n1139674 said:
This is good to see. I questioned adding the surface area of an enclosure without countering it's negative stability effects.

One could say the same thing about the ELA Eclipse and Trixy Princess, except they were first designed as enclosed, so one would expect them to be more stable when the enclosure is removed.

I recently learned something about Magni's lack of an enclosed tandem gyro. I saw in a youtube video of a Magni rep that they tried for 7 years to create basically an enclosed M-22. It was called the M-23, but it never met Magni's standards for stability. The M-24 Orion side by side was Magni's solution for an enclosed gyro ultimately. So according to Magni an enclosed tandem is an unsolvable problem stability wise.

Are Magnis that much more stable compared to others' enclosed tandem gyros?

John
Which specific Magni model do you want to compare to other enclosed machines? Do you mean Magni M-24 compared to Calidus and E-10 for example? Or are you comparing M-16 or M-22 to enclosed machines? AR-1's tail was already 40% larger than most European models and about 10 inches farther back than say a MTO Sport. Even so the dorsal fin etc. makes it easier to handle by adding side area and moving sideways CP back

We will have one AR-1C coming to new England in the next couple of months with my friends Rob Albright and Tabor who run trike and airplane school in Stow, Mass.
 
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NJpilot

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fara;n1139675 said:
Which specific Magni model do you want to compare to other enclosed machines?
It seems Magni has strict stability requirements for all its gyros so really any Magni vs any enclosed tandem.

Good to know that the AR-1's tail is so large and long. I'm sure Magni would have tried that too. Why didn't that work for Magni? Is there something stability wise that Magni values that others don't? I read in an early M-24 post that Italian ultralight rules require the use of a helmet even in enclosed aircraft. One can certainly wear a helmet in an M-24. I've never seen a photo of any overhead canopy gyro that showed a pilot wearing a helmet. There's not enough room is most. I spoke to an AutoGyro rep at the Aero Expo and once I told him I was 6"4" he said there no way I'd fit in a Calidus. Maybe Magni's enclosure was made much taller to accommodate a helmet and therefore much harder to compensate for. It appears the ELA, AR-1, and Trixy all have more bulbous canopies. Can someone 6'4" wear a helmet in an enclosed AR-1? The side door gyros from Niki and DTA seem to have more headroom.
 

fara

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NJpilot;n1139679 said:
It seems Magni has strict stability requirements for all its gyros so really any Magni vs any enclosed tandem.

Good to know that the AR-1's tail is so large and long. I'm sure Magni would have tried that too. Why didn't that work for Magni? Is there something stability wise that Magni values that others don't? I read in an early M-24 post that Italian ultralight rules require the use of a helmet even in enclosed aircraft. One can certainly wear a helmet in an M-24. I've never seen a photo of any overhead canopy gyro that showed a pilot wearing a helmet. There's not enough room is most. I spoke to an AutoGyro rep at the Aero Expo and once I told him I was 6"4" he said there no way I'd fit in a Calidus. Maybe Magni's enclosure was made much taller to accommodate a helmet and therefore much harder to compensate for. It appears the ELA, AR-1, and Trixy all have more bulbous canopies. Can someone 6'4" wear a helmet in an enclosed AR-1? The side door gyros from Niki and DTA seem to have more headroom.
I don't know why it would not work for Magni. It certainly can. May be they never tried the dorsal fin.
Magni M-16 has power/yaw and power/pitch coupling that is not there in standard open AR-1. Its less than MTO Sport in M-16 but its there for sure. You can sense it in 2 minutes of flight. AR-1 is fairly close to center line thrust so its missing the moments that these other gyroplanes have. Helmet requirements in Italy are for microlights. Those aren't gyroplanes to the best of my knowledge but my Italian isn't great so ...

If you are 6'4", we didn't design the canopy around you. We designed it around a 6'2" person. Some 6'4" people can fit and some can't. Seen it both ways. Sorry. Had to draw the line somewhere. Usually we aim to get 94-95 percentile of potentials. Forget the helmet. I'd say you will be lucky at 6'4" to fit in with a headset. I would not wear a helmet under the canopy. I can tell you that. I have no reason to die from sweating under a canopy and helmet in Florida at least.

I do not think ELA E-10's canopy is bulbous. You are pretty much 6 inches off the floor of the body in it just as in Calidus and the back guys legs come around your front seat just like Calidus. So you better be good friends. This is all to keep the canopy low. In AR-1 you sit up on a seat, not so much laying posture so our canopy is higher due to that. Trixy just seemed like a huge gyro when I saw it in Germany. DTA may have more headroom but they warn you with the doors on yaw stability is reduced. It has to. No other way because you are comparing it to open version of the same machine. That does not mean it is unstable or dangerous.
 
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NJpilot

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The reasons behind Magni throwing in the towel on an enclosed tandem gyro is a mystery. If I ever meet someone high enough in the Magni organization I'll press them on a reason. Given how conservative Magni is, it wouldn't surprise me if they tested an enclosure tall enough to wear a helmet in. Every Magni produced M-24 video I've seen have the occupants wearing helmets. Of course one can wear a helmet in other side by sides too.

Bummer that I'm too tall for the AR-1C and it sounds like the ELA 10 as well. I did sit in a DTA and a Niki and I did fit in both. I don't know if I'd have room for a helmet though, I suspect not. I do wear a helmet in my Challenger 2 and would like to continue if I ever get a gyro. An 1/8 inch of plexiglass is no reason to not wear a helmet in my opinion. I did have my heart set on an enclosed tandem but the Magni M-24 is looking better and better.
 

EdL

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Having been to the Magni factory to build my M-16, I can safely say they haven’t thrown in the towel on a tandem enclosed.

/Ed
 

fara

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Well today Greg told me that in Alberta, he flew a few times a 6' 6" Canadian. They did take out the seat cushions and he had 1 inch left. Its impossible to guess because people are not proportionate like each other. Its just something that has to be measured. But at heights like that wearing a helmet is going to be a stretch. Its not the plexi-glass that changes that. Its the aerodynamics. A couple of inches higher in the front seat is the difference between a zero or a hero in how aircraft handles.
 

NJpilot

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"Having been to the Magni factory to build my M-16, I can safely say they haven’t thrown in the towel on a tandem enclosed."

Fingers crossed it uses two side doors like the DTA J-Ro and not another overhead canopy.
 

NJpilot

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"Having been to the Magni factory to build my M-16, I can safely say they haven’t thrown in the towel on a tandem enclosed."

Fingers crossed it uses two side doors like the DTA J-Ro and not another overhead canopy.
 
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