Fatal - N419LB Cavalon OK

Smack

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"if you listened to Synder the 60ft is now 10ft with Cavalon"... with a 20-25kt headwind.
That last bit is rather important, but by omitting same, you greatly alter his statement.
 

Tyger

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But of course the fact of the headwind was not omitted in the actual video of Snyder talking.
Perhaps Phil's point is that when a wide-eyed potential customer hears "maybe about ten feet", that's what can end up sticking in his mind, especially given that lots of people seem to equate gyros with helicopters. I can't tell you how many people look at my gyro for the first time and ask me if it can take off like a helicopter. Many seem genuinely disappointed when I say, "no".
 

Abid

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+1 and now if you listened to Synder the 60ft is now 10ft with Cavalon

One real big issue in the small / niche world of sport gyroplanes is that urban myths or metrics that should come with huge health warnings or caveats are told less often than they should for fear of putting a head above the wall and getting it shot off. People enjoy getting along to get along.

Well at least Bob is qualifying the statement with 20 to 25 knot headwind.
What I am talking about is 60 foot (unqualified) takeoff roll distance printed on MTO Sport 2017 brochures from AutoGyro handed out at Sun N Fun. All in print. I mean its a short takeoff in 15 knot headwinds for AR-1 too but I am not going to go printing a brochure saying AR-1 one up takeoff in 30 feet and then in the POH write oh the takeoff roll is 300 feet. Well which one is it? Obviously the right answer is what's in the POH. We all know tendency of marketing and sales people to fudge the numbers by playing around with specs but you start writing/printing too optimistic material that does not even come close to your own POH and one day it can all come to bite you. Note that this discussion about marketing and POH specs may have absolutely no bearing n this particular accident. This just seems like an untrained pilot at first glance till we know more

 
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All_In

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All_In

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The headline made me laugh.
Flying car manufacturer PAL-V and Airtificial sign new strategic agreement.
To a dyslexic Airtificial is translated to Artificial which is what the PAL-V has been so far.
Gee's they are admitting it. Like more artificial is what they need.
Had to cover up one letter at a time to figure that one out.
I prefer my first interpretation.
 

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They don't have the new version flying yet and this will not fix that problem.
I agree with Abid... they should have kept the first version and made it stable.
I think the first version was flying (occasionally) about 13 years ago.
The second version doesn't fly, but they now how have a parts supplier with a clever name lined up so they can make lots of them some day...
But they really don't have to make or fly any of these things as long as they can keep stringing the Dutch gov't (and who knows who else) along, hopefully for at least another decade or so.
 

All_In

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I think the first version was flying (occasionally) about 13 years ago.
The second version doesn't fly, but they now how have a parts supplier with a clever name lined up so they can make lots of them some day...
But they really don't have to make or fly any of these things as long as they can keep stringing the Dutch gov't (and who knows who else) along, hopefully for at least another decade or so.
Yes, we have seen this show before, only without the support of most governments.
 

Philbennett

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"if you listened to Synder the 60ft is now 10ft with Cavalon"... with a 20-25kt headwind.
That last bit is rather important, but by omitting same, you greatly alter his statement.
Yes of course but the pilot operating handbook doesn't give a the take off distance required with varying headwind components so 10ft could be 0ft, 1ft, 100ft or any number anecdotal evidence may decide. To the points others have made the number that sticks in the mind is the optimistic one that the sales and marketing guys shout at every show, not the one in the pilot operating handbook. Same as the number of hours you need to fly one etc etc. Its why these things keep happening. On Pal-V I wonder what the one engine in-operative take off distance at maximum all up weight is or indeed what the process in the pilot operating handbook becomes? I suspect hold 60 and crash straight ahead.

Edited to remove the acronyms and to explain the Pal-V has two motors, which the training aircraft [I believe they are using M24] does not have. It will be interesting to learn what the flight performance of the Pal-V is when flying on one engine [if possible at all], especially in the more challenging phase of the flight [take off] and at maximum all up weight. Even more interesting how the pilots get rated before being able to operate a twin engine gyroplane and what the learning process will be especially around cues. Not suggesting that any of that is deficient at Pal-V but it is something that occurs to me when I see the machine as an aircraft and I think of the training process combined with the likely natural customer and the marketing to acquire them.
 
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Tyger

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Wow, that (was) a lot of acronyms :)
 
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All_In

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Well, he taught me one I did not remember. TODR (Temporary Overhaul Data Revision) I think?
But the 2nd I do not know or remember OEIO the only search match has "Office of Earnings & International Operations" that cannot be right.
I'd rather be known as stupid than not know what it means.

For newbies, I use the acronym but put the description in () that teaches without research needed.
 

Vance

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Yes of course but the POH doesn't give a the TODR with varying headwind components so 10ft could be 0ft, 1ft, 100ft or any number anecdotal evidence may decide. To the points others have made the number that sticks in the mind is the optimistic one that the sales and marketing guys shout at every show, not the one in the POH. Same as the number of hours you need to fly one etc etc. Its why these things keep happening. On Pal-V I wonder what the OEIO take off distance at MAUW is or indeed what the process in the POH becomes? I suspect hold 60 and crash straight ahead.
I am puzzled by the use of uncommon acronyms.

None of them are listed in the FAA acronyms:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../avs/offices/air/transformation/csp/acronyms/

I could not find any of them in a more colloquial source: https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/become-a-pilot/pilot-and-aviation-abbreviations/#T

Would you please share what you intended to communicate by using the words.

Thank you.
 

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In my experience it is not unusual for someone to imagine that a gyroplane is a short takeoff and landing aircraft.

In my experience it is not unusual for someone to imagine that wind direction is not an important part of the takeoff decision.

I have made some poor aviation decisions myself.

I am often surprised by the lack of condemnation by my peers.

I have been chastised many times for wanting a quarter mile of takeoff distance to clear a fifty foot obstacle despite what the POH says.

Caution is learned and it is often not easy or intuitive.
I am so sad to hear about this accidendt. That could have been me 3 years ago if it was not lucky that I ran across Vances number. I had just purchased my gyro and was ging to take it out right away and fly it. I was reading the paperwork and ran across a phone number. I thought that I would call it and try and get some pointers. It happened to be Vance on the other end. That phone call might of saved my life. He talked me into taking lessons and hooked me up with a local CFI. I am so glad that I took his advise. I took lessons and then my instructor told me that I did well and that it was time to transition into my gyro. I spent a year getting the feel of it ballancing on the mains before I even took it off the ground. I was able to feel safe and confident when I did. Thank you Vance and I hope this helps any beginner to think and not be stupid. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air then being in the air wishing you were on the ground.
 

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I am so sad to hear about this accidendt. That could have been me 3 years ago if it was not lucky that I ran across Vances number. I had just purchased my gyro and was ging to take it out right away and fly it. I was reading the paperwork and ran across a phone number. I thought that I would call it and try and get some pointers. It happened to be Vance on the other end. That phone call might of saved my life. He talked me into taking lessons and hooked me up with a local CFI. I am so glad that I took his advise. I took lessons and then my instructor told me that I did well and that it was time to transition into my gyro. I spent a year getting the feel of it ballancing on the mains before I even took it off the ground. I was able to feel safe and confident when I did. Thank you Vance and I hope this helps any beginner to think and not be stupid. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air then being in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I love reading stories about good decision making. Glad you wisely chose the path you did, Butch.
 

Vance

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I am so sad to hear about this accidendt. That could have been me 3 years ago if it was not lucky that I ran across Vances number. I had just purchased my gyro and was ging to take it out right away and fly it. I was reading the paperwork and ran across a phone number. I thought that I would call it and try and get some pointers. It happened to be Vance on the other end. That phone call might of saved my life. He talked me into taking lessons and hooked me up with a local CFI. I am so glad that I took his advise. I took lessons and then my instructor told me that I did well and that it was time to transition into my gyro. I spent a year getting the feel of it ballancing on the mains before I even took it off the ground. I was able to feel safe and confident when I did. Thank you Vance and I hope this helps any beginner to think and not be stupid. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air then being in the air wishing you were on the ground.
Thank you for the kind words Vernon.

That is nice story well told with a happy ending.

I am so glad you listened; not everyone has.

I wish you all the best on your gyroplane adventure.

Please call me any time you have a question nine am to nine pm pacific time. (805)680-9523
 
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Abid

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I am so sad to hear about this accidendt. That could have been me 3 years ago if it was not lucky that I ran across Vances number. I had just purchased my gyro and was ging to take it out right away and fly it. I was reading the paperwork and ran across a phone number. I thought that I would call it and try and get some pointers. It happened to be Vance on the other end. That phone call might of saved my life. He talked me into taking lessons and hooked me up with a local CFI. I am so glad that I took his advise. I took lessons and then my instructor told me that I did well and that it was time to transition into my gyro. I spent a year getting the feel of it ballancing on the mains before I even took it off the ground. I was able to feel safe and confident when I did. Thank you Vance and I hope this helps any beginner to think and not be stupid. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air then being in the air wishing you were on the ground.
Thank you Butch for sharing this. Obviously you did not have to put this out there but this can help someone down the road.
And thank you Vance for guiding him.
training is serious business. Take it seriously and respectfully.
 

Philbennett

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I am puzzled by the use of uncommon acronyms.

None of them are listed in the FAA acronyms:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../avs/offices/air/transformation/csp/acronyms/

I could not find any of them in a more colloquial source: https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/become-a-pilot/pilot-and-aviation-abbreviations/#T

Would you please share what you intended to communicate by using the words.

Thank you.
Pilot operating handbook, maximum all up weight etc were not listed? Genuinely surprised and perhaps a red flag to what gets taught and surprised some of them were new to you but I suppose it goes to show you should never assume, which is quite apt in the context of this post. Sorry for any confusion I've edited the offending post with more typing to help those who didn't know.
 

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The ideas are certainly familiar here but several of the acronyms are not in common usage. It's a bit like "QFE" and ”QNH", which aren't called that by most in US general aviation, although we all know how to set an altimeter. As somebody once said, we're two nations divided by a common language.
 
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Tyger

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This excerpt (from yesterday's WSJ) made me think of PAL-V:
What happened at Theranos, after all, was not all that unusual in the world of venture capital unicorns: a company churning through investor money, putting out puffy press releases, while trying to scheme up some kind of revenue model against the day it might need to show some results.
 

Steve_UK

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This excerpt (from yesterday's WSJ) made me think of PAL-V:
What happened at Theranos, after all, was not all that unusual in the world of venture capital unicorns: a company churning through investor money, putting out puffy press releases, while trying to scheme up some kind of revenue model against the day it might need to show some results.
Can we try and stick on topic - this thread is about the fatal accident to Cavalon N419LB - feel free to start new threads on new subjects, there's no limit on threads - thanks
 
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