Fatal - N419LB Cavalon OK

Vance

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All this about take-off distance as a fixed number.

And not one mention of density height affecting performance...

Cheers
Erik
Most Pilots’ Operating Handbooks go into the effect of density altitude at length.

In the USA the FAA will have several questions about the effects of density altitude on all kinds of things on the knowledge test.

In flight reviews I find the effect of density altitude is often an area where pilots’ knowledge is a little vague.

Some questions to ask yourself are:

How is density altitude calculated?

How does density altitude affect my takeoff performance?

How much takeoff distance do I need to clear a fifty foot obstacle at a five thousand foot density altitude?

When landing at high density altitude do I need to use a different indicated air speed on approach to land?

How does density altitude affect my ground speed?

How do ground obstructions affect my takeoff and climb performance when it is windy?

Where is my abort point when the takeoff does not appear to be going as expected?

There have been accidents where these questions were not answered correctly as part of the accident chain.

The answers are all easy to find or calculate even if they are not covered in your POH.

The answers to this questions are supposed to be addressed in your phase one for an experimental aircraft.

In my opinion phase one is more than simply flying off hours.
 

rcflier

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huh. When I said sea level and standard atmospheric conditions. What do you think that is pointing to.
It’s very simple. The standards in aviation mean that when specs are given unless otherwise specified, they are at gross weight, standard conditions at sea level. Everyone who has a pilot’s license does or should know that.
Going by marketing material with non standard terminology is a salesman tool not something a pilot should use to make critical decisions on

Hi Fara.

Oops - sorry about that. It was not about you. You are always sober and thorough in your replies. I didn't see "sea level standard...".

I went off because I saw someone stating "300 feet" and Vance was quoting the POH out of context.

Too fast on the trigger (happens often).

Cheers
Erik
 
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fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Do you really think that's a good line? 🤣

It must be pretty easy to be head of flight training for an aircraft that does not yet actually fly. Sales is a different story!

My fave (video) line of theirs is still, "It vill be available to customers to go from any door to any door." :unsure: 🙄

Well in theory they can land at an airport, pack the rotor and drive to any door a car can drive to. Pal-V had a flying prototype and I thought it was a decent achievement. However, they shelved it because they wanted a side by side more a car like machine. Not the best technical or even business decision IMO.
I helped a company in Louisiana that makes a dune buggy that also is a PPC.


I did not design it but I did load calculations for what they can get away with at a minimum and power requirements calculation and helped them through FAA ASTM compliance audit, took my money and ran away. Supposedly US military is buying them. Thus there is always hope for gyroplanes.
 
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Illini85

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Which Andy is this, Fara? Was that the gyro pilot in Mallorca?
I believe you might be thinking of Andy Tille who was highly regarded as a pilot and killed tragically in his ELA -07. I recall a video that showed the gyro rolling suggesting a slip/roll coupling that would for my lack of a better term would be a sideways drag over.
 

DavePA11

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'

haaa .... The PAL-V that will be available next year for over 5 years now

.
What insurance company would insure a PAL~V operating on the road? Just stupid. Minor fender bender would probably total the PAL~V costing the insurance company hundreds of thousands for single accident. The concept will never fly!
 
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Greg Vos

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The same Andy that's now flogging the PAL-V? :)
Well Pal V every fly ….as a car it looks like a heap of shit IMO
 

loftus

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I think eventually we may see something like the PAL-V approved but combination car / flying machines are likely to be toys for folks with extra cash to burn. As Greg says not a great car and probably will be an even worse flying machine not very satisfactory to most pilots. Just like the ICON amphib, just a hugely overpriced machine.
Down the road a long ways, I can imagine an electric VTOL quadcopter type design, that allows the fans to turn horizontally like an Osprey, which could then either fly horizontally or travel on the ground. Add autonomous control, and will not even require a licensed pilot. I hope Elon Musk does not steal my idea. :ROFLMAO:
 

Tyger

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What insurance company would insure a PAL~V operating on the road? Just stupid. Minor fender bender would probably total the PAL~V costing the insurance company hundreds of thousands for single accident. The concept will never fly!
If you are rich enough to spend that kind of money, you'd almost certainly be self-insuring the "hull". If you break it, you already bought it.

You'd need just liability insurance, and I don't think that thing would be likely to cause much more damage to other vehicles/things/people than any other three-wheeled "motorcycle" (It's never going to be a "car"; it cannot possilbly meet the crash-test requirements of actual cars).
 

Brian Jackson

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Just one man's opinion, but I believe with the advancements in fly-by-wire multi-rotor electric drones, most people will soon see concepts like the PAL-V and other similar designs as relics. I just don't think there's a forward-looking market for them. Even now, gyros are little more than a novel curiosity among those who dream of flying. The most direct path to separating dreamers from their cash will be found by reducing the obstacles along the way, like specialized flight training and rotor management. For many (if not most) a turn-key solution is the more attractive option. And honestly, anything with a gasoline engine will soon find itself sharing space with buggy whips and slide rules.
 

fara

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Just one man's opinion, but I believe with the advancements in fly-by-wire multi-rotor electric drones, most people will soon see concepts like the PAL-V and other similar designs as relics. I just don't think there's a forward-looking market for them. Even now, gyros are little more than a novel curiosity among those who dream of flying. The most direct path to separating dreamers from their cash will be found by reducing the obstacles along the way, like specialized flight training and rotor management. For many (if not most) a turn-key solution is the more attractive option. And honestly, anything with a gasoline engine will soon find itself sharing space with buggy whips and slide rules.

yes drone vertical takeoff will change this whole helicopter and jump takeoff gyro need.
I however don’t think that engines are going anywhere in aviation anytime soon. The facts are hard and battery energy density is no match for gasoline right now. There are decades and decades left in gas engines in aviation use practically. These same statements about electric power were being made 10 years ago and in my honest opinion the technology has moved only a few slow steps since then. There has to be a fundamental breakthrough and I don’t see something like that on the horizon yet
 
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loftus

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yes drone vertical takeoff will change this whole helicopter and jump takeoff gyro need.
I however don’t think that engines are going anywhere in aviation anytime soon. The facts are hard and battery energy density is no match for gasoline right now. There are decades and decades left in gas engines in aviation use practically. These same statements about electric power were being made 10 years ago and in my honest opinion the technology has moved only a few slow steps since then. There has to be a fundamental breakthrough and I don’t see something like that on the horizon yet
I think you are correct for long distance travel, but shorter hop commuter type aircraft are already on the horizon with existing electric technology. Just my two cents but this would be the market I think would be worth exploring at least with present technology. Even if the PAL-V eventually does get into production, it's going to be a lousy long distance aircraft and a lousy long distance car. On the other hand an electric quadcopter type design for shorter commuter hops is not only technically more feasible with existing technology, it would also be a proof of concept requirement to assess whether there really is a market for flying cars or not. A ducted fan type VTOL quadcopter is also going to be a much safer and more versatile vehicle in an urban environment, than something swinging a big rotor blade that would require a runway to takeoff and land.
 
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WaspAir

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And honestly, anything with a gasoline engine will soon find itself sharing space with buggy whips and slide rules.
Never used a buggy whip, but my trusty ivory-clad Keuffel & Esser log-log duplex decitrig got me through college. Still have it, plus a collection of Picketts in metal and plastic and some circular pocket size units. Even have a working slide rule tie clasp.
 

Resasi

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Even now, gyros are little more than a novel curiosity among those who dream of flying.
In a lifetime of flying in a pretty good range of types, including gliding, trikes and free fall I have found single seat gyros both exhilarating and economically within my reach at my stage in life.
 

Martin W.

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Never used a buggy whip, but my trusty ivory-clad Keuffel & Esser log-log duplex decitrig got me through college. Still have it, plus a collection of Picketts in metal and plastic and some circular pocket size units. Even have a working slide rule tie clasp.
Back in the day my helicopter student kit used a circular slide rule affair for navigation etc .... mostly used it for calculating heading in crosswind conditions. I was kinda slow using it .... sometimes took several minutes to do the calculations.

Then I bought the first 1980 "Cessna Sky Computer" .... a hand held calculator that cost as much as one hour instruction in a heli .... enter density , elevation , wind direction , wind speed , etc , and press "enter" .... then wait and wait and wait until finally it calculated the heading .

It worked but was slower than me . Also had a very faint display that was hard to read in sunlight . Used a watch type battery that nobody sold or kept in stock . Probably a collectors item today


cessna sky computor.JPG
 

fara

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I think you are correct for long distance travel, but shorter hop commuter type aircraft are already on the horizon with existing electric technology. Just my two cents but this would be the market I think would be worth exploring at least with present technology. Even if the PAL-V eventually does get into production, it's going to be a lousy long distance aircraft and a lousy long distance car. On the other hand an electric quadcopter type design for shorter commuter hops is not only technically more feasible with existing technology, it would also be a proof of concept requirement to assess whether there really is a market for flying cars or not. A ducted fan type VTOL quadcopter is also going to be a much safer and more versatile vehicle in an urban environment, than something swinging a big rotor blade that would require a runway to takeoff and land.

yes the Urban Mobility business model like Joby, Archer, Lilium etc. The SPAC these guys have used to go public have already made them plenty of millions or most likely since it’s restricted in trading they’ll have wait a year or two per SEC rules before cashing them out.

I am surprised that people like the new outfit using Groen Brothers leftover tech is still using the jump takeoff to try and cash out on it. They got to know the game has changed and if they don’t see that they are doomed to repeat the past.
 
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Illini85

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Any chance remembering where to see that, Steve?
Found this article. I can't locate a video.

 

Philbennett

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Possibly but likely not. Andy proudly told Sun N Fun visitors in 2017 that MTO Sport 2017 takes off in 60 feet. They came to our booth and told us our gyro performs a lot worse and when I told them Andy is smoking a good one, I heard a good lecture in front of his whole team (including people visiting from the UK) from Andy and about how MTO Sport 2017 is German Engineered not American and will outsell AR-1 by 4 to 5 times in the US. I just shook my head and walked away.
At the end of the day you should never oversell the performance too much in aircraft. There are always going to be mediocre pilots who try to do extra-ordinary things with your aircraft and have no common sense to judge either aircraft performance or their own ability reasonably. Having marketing data that puts you in a danger zone is not a great idea.
300 feet to break ground is about right and inline with other similar machines with decent technique in standard conditions and sea level on prepared runway and that is pretty darn short.
+1 and now if you listened to Synder the 60ft is now 10ft with Cavalon

One real big issue in the small / niche world of sport gyroplanes is that urban myths or metrics that should come with huge health warnings or caveats are told less often than they should for fear of putting a head above the wall and getting it shot off. People enjoy getting along to get along.
 
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