Fatal - N419LB Cavalon OK

Abid

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I've no idea what happened - surprised no one's yet mentioned a medical incapacitation

I feel sorry for the family but this is very unlikely to be medical but more mental issue honestly.
Just because you have money does not mean you are ready and competent to fly and specially from the get go become a STOL bush pilot in a new to you machine. Unfortunately we see this across the board in aviation in trikes, gyroplanes everywhere. Not sure why that is. Its just that some people are just eager to do something they are not even remotely ready for or make really apparent bad decisions
 

BEN S

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"
have made some poor aviation decisions myself.

I am often surprised by the lack of condemnation by my peers."

And when we did, you didn't listen......
 

Martin W.

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Not likely a medical issue ... but could be a mental health issue ..... ( more correctly a mindset )

They have their own vocabulary ... the non-pilot may say ........ "hold my beer"

The pilot may say ..... "watch this"

They seem to lack the pinch of fear that most of us have

According to some , the deadliest words in aviation are .... "watch this"

.
 

Rick E

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.

Not likely a medical issue ... but could be a mental health issue ..... ( more correctly a mindset )

They have their own vocabulary ... the non-pilot may say ........ "hold my beer"

The pilot may say ..... "watch this"

They seem to lack the pinch of fear that most of us have

According to some , the deadliest words in aviation are .... "watch this"

.
I cringe when I hear a pilot say “should be okay”.
 

GyrOZprey

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I suspect THIS is the" accident -to -come " that a CFI had expressed helpless concern to me, over - some time ago!
....."what do I do ...when this student removes his gyro from my training center???? .... It does not have current registration ... he has accumulated some 30 hours of training ...but spaced out sporadically over a couple of years ... he is FAR from being signed off competent to solo ...I KNOW if he takes it home ...he will try to fly it & wreck/die!"
Consensus of advice - when he removes it from your property ... advise the FAA/NTSB ...that he has done so & with-out the sign-off /sufficient training to fly it! all one can do is pre-emt the fall-out should they come back to the CFI last listed on the log-book!

There seem to be way too many ...hard-headed cases like this in the last year of gyro fatalities who ...REFUSE extra( -for transition pilots) & sufficient training ...for these primary/unrated wanna-be fliers! sadly Darwin's rules & the ground are hard & unforgiving!
 

GyroChuck

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Just looked at the Cavalon USA web site. Says take off distance with one pilot is 98'. https://autogyrousa.com/cavalon/

Maybe with an experienced Pilot with experience in the Cavalon and a paved runway that might be possible. But others here have already pointed out the obvious.
 

Abid

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Just looked at the Cavalon USA web site. Says take off distance with one pilot is 98'. https://autogyrousa.com/cavalon/

Maybe with an experienced Pilot with experience in the Cavalon and a paved runway that might be possible. But others here have already pointed out the obvious.

Marketing and actual takeoff distance vary vastly. It would be naïve of a pilot to take their marketing to heart and rely on it for such a critical decision. The actual performance numbers are in the POH and they are more reliable.
No takeoff distance of Cavalon or MTO Sport 2017 is no where near 60 or 98 feet. Those numbers may be ground roll and that too with a whole bunch of qualifications. The standard terminology for specs is takeoff distance is the distance to clear 50 foot obstacle with average pilot technique on a prepared runway at standard atmospheric conditions (15 C/59 F) at sea level.
We list AR-1 ground roll as 200 to 300 feet at sea level in standard atmospheric conditions on prepared runway. I have flown 20+ hours in a MTO Sport 2017 914 and its ground roll is not any better normally and only slightly better if doing 300 RPM on rotors in pre-rotation and AR-1 with 914 actually outclimbs it with same load in same conditions to clear 50 foot obstacle.
 

Vance

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Just looked at the Cavalon USA web site. Says take off distance with one pilot is 98'. https://autogyrousa.com/cavalon/

Maybe with an experienced Pilot with experience in the Cavalon and a paved runway that might be possible. But others here have already pointed out the obvious.
The 98 foot takeoff distance in the advertising brochure appears to me to be in conflict with the Cavalon/ Rotax 915IA Pilot’s Operating Handbook.

The notes in the advertising brochure do mention a 175 pilot and ten gallons of fuel at 2,000 feet MSL.

Quote from the POH:

“Take-offs and landings have been demonstrated up to a crosswind component of 36 km/h (22mph, 20KIAS). As an additional information the following data is valid for operation of a Cavalon equipped with an ROTAX 915 IS engine, at a gross mass of 560 kg at an even air strip with short grass,, and pre-rotation to 300 RPM. Take-off distances are to clear a 15 m obstacle

Take-off roll .............................................................................90 – 100 m

Take-off distance, HTC prop.............................................300 m

Take-off distance, Woodcomp ........................................260 m”
 

Martin W.

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Just looked at the Cavalon USA web site. Says take off distance with one pilot is 98'. https://autogyrousa.com/cavalon/

Maybe with an experienced Pilot with experience in the Cavalon and a paved runway that might be possible. But others here have already pointed out the obvious.
Most likely a typo on that website .... 98' should be 98 metres which is about 300 feet.

'
 

Tyger

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Maybe he thought he could get over just a lil-ol' barbed-wire fence in the space of the listed ground roll, but not on grass, downwind, and possibly uphill... But the big thought that occurs to me is: could this have been his first ever takeoff attempt??
 
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Abid

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Most likely a typo on that website .... 98' should be 98 metres which is about 300 feet.

'

Possibly but likely not. Andy proudly told Sun N Fun visitors in 2017 that MTO Sport 2017 takes off in 60 feet. They came to our booth and told us our gyro performs a lot worse and when I told them Andy is smoking a good one, I heard a good lecture in front of his whole team (including people visiting from the UK) from Andy and about how MTO Sport 2017 is German Engineered not American and will outsell AR-1 by 4 to 5 times in the US. I just shook my head and walked away.
At the end of the day you should never oversell the performance too much in aircraft. There are always going to be mediocre pilots who try to do extra-ordinary things with your aircraft and have no common sense to judge either aircraft performance or their own ability reasonably. Having marketing data that puts you in a danger zone is not a great idea.
300 feet to break ground is about right and inline with other similar machines with decent technique in standard conditions and sea level on prepared runway and that is pretty darn short.
 
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Kevin_Richey

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Which Andy is this, Fara? Was that the gyro pilot in Mallorca?
 

Abid

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Which Andy is this, Fara? Was that the gyro pilot in Mallorca?
Andy Wall. The German selected previous president of AutoGyro USA. I don’t know where he is now
 

DavePA11

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Looks like Andy Wall is the Sales country manager in UK for Pal-v and Phil Harwood is Head of Flight training. They have their work cut out selling hype year over year. Just like one of their quotes

“PAL-V is not a dream but the reality of tomorrow. Enabling tomorrow’s reality is what drives me.”

That is a good line to get people to hand over money, but never becomes a reality…

Lots of sales people for noting to sell.

 

rcflier

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All this about take-off distance as a fixed number.

And not one mention of density height affecting performance...

Cheers
Erik
 
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Abid

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All this about take-off distance as a fixed number.

And not one mention of density height affecting performance...

Cheers
Erik

huh. When I said sea level and standard atmospheric conditions. What do you think that is pointing to.
It’s very simple. The standards in aviation mean that when specs are given unless otherwise specified, they are at gross weight, standard conditions at sea level. Everyone who has a pilot’s license does or should know that.
Going by marketing material with non standard terminology is a salesman tool not something a pilot should use to make critical decisions on
 

Doug Riley

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Years ago, a dear friend of mine died in a departure stall of his new U.L. sailplane. The sales literature spoke of a stall speed of 24/26 mph.

An experienced pilot of that model told me it was more like 40.

Believing hype can indeed be deadly.
 

Tyger

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Looks like Andy Wall is the Sales country manager in UK for Pal-v and Phil Harwood is Head of Flight training. They have their work cut out selling hype year over year. Just like one of their quotes
“PAL-V is not a dream but the reality of tomorrow. Enabling tomorrow’s reality is what drives me.”
That is a good line to get people to hand over money, but never becomes a reality…
Do you really think that's a good line? 🤣

It must be pretty easy to be head of flight training for an aircraft that does not yet actually fly. Sales is a different story!

My fave (video) line of theirs is still, "It vill be available to customers to go from any door to any door." :unsure: 🙄
 
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