Fatal - Magni M24 Orion 05-TD, Guillestre, near Mont-Dauphin - St-Crépin Airfield, Hautes, France 08 MAR 2022

TyroGyro

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Airfield elevation 3000 ft. Pilot "ejected" on impact.



Sincere condolences to all affected by this tragic incident.
 
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Abid

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DTA has closed shop unfortunately in France. Bought by Chinese investors, it may be taking shape in mainland China but not as DTA and possibly not for western markets
 

TyroGyro

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Accident aircraft was a Magni, apparently misidentified originally as a J-RO.
 
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Abid

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Not a good week for gyroplanes in France. My condolences
 

Doug Riley

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Any aircraft with that body shape, size and area, and a tail of that design and location, will be statically unstable in one or more axes at various combinations of (1) high airspeed + low throttle setting, (2) reduced G, and (3) uncoordinated flight.

Brand names do not matter to the laws of nature.

"Hey, mine flies" (or more usually, "fly's") "good" is not a piece of flight-test data.
 

Doug Riley

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I think you are trying to get me "Riled up". 🙃
No intention to "Rile" anyone in particular, Tyger. We do have a problem with magical thinking, though.

The fact that a gyro handles just fine at cruise, and may even fly hands-off in those circumstances, doesn't mean it'll behave in a stable way in low G, or in a fast power-off glide, or in uncoordinated flight. High thrustline, center of pressure ahead of, and/or below, CG, or uncompensated torque will bite you quite unexpectedly.

It's the nature of these particular design issues that they often are nearly undetectable without formal tests. You can make an educated guess about their presence just by looking at a design, though. The one in the posted picture can reasonably be suspected of having all of these problems. Only systematic flight tests by an impartial pilot knowledgeable in such things can determine for sure, though.

Be very afraid if a designer or promoter says something like "Don't worry about that; I have selected a control leverage ratio so that it's all good." Such claims amount to declaring that one has rescinded the laws of fluid dynamics.
 

Tyger

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Doug, no argument from me. My being "riled" has to do only with your pointing out others' use of "fly's" and "good", haha.
But, as you may have read, my biggest beef remains with the use of "loose" instead of "lose" 😝.
I agree with you about the shape of that J-Ro (I think most english speakers don't realize that, in french, that's pronounced ZHEE-Roh)
But... wouldn't "a piece of data" be merely a datum? 😊
 

Doug Riley

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Yup, in former days, a "datum" would equal a single piece of data. Now, "datum" usually means the zero point along some axis. Latin really is dead.

Like "corn," I guess. A barleycorn (as in the old song about booze) is one grain of barley. But "corn" now means a pile of the stuff, like "data."

Then again, it's now politically correct (in fact, mandatory in some circles) to refer to one person as "they." The nuns would whack us over the head for that, back in the day.

Serious off-topic, so --

DavePA, what does a Niki look like? Can't bring an image to mind. If it's yet another fully-enclosed tandem lowrider with a Magni-copy tail, the same suspicions apply as to the J-Ro.
 

WaspAir

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Doug, no argument from me. My being "riled" has to do only with your pointing out others' use of "fly's" and "good", haha.
You guys missed the critical term:

" it fly's reel good".
 

DonBishop

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Yup, in former days, a "datum" would equal a single piece of data. Now, "datum" usually means the zero point along some axis. Latin really is dead.

Like "corn," I guess. A barleycorn (as in the old song about booze) is one grain of barley. But "corn" now means a pile of the stuff, like "data."

Then again, it's now politically correct (in fact, mandatory in some circles) to refer to one person as "they." The nuns would whack us over the head for that, back in the day.

Serious off-topic, so --

DavePA, what does a Niki look like? Can't bring an image to mind. If it's yet another fully-enclosed tandem lowrider with a Magni-copy tail, the same suspicions apply as to the J-Ro.

Somebody please bring back the nuns!!
 

JETLAG03

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Doug, no argument from me. My being "riled" has to do only with your pointing out others' use of "fly's" and "good", haha.
But, as you may have read, my biggest beef remains with the use of "loose" instead of "lose" 😝.
I agree with you about the shape of that J-Ro (I think most english speakers don't realize that, in french, that's pronounced ZHEE-Roh)
But... wouldn't "a piece of data" be merely a datum? 😊
not sure what cattle have to do with it but if you lose it over loose hope you never have anything of importance to "beef" about o_O
 

Abid

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No intention to "Rile" anyone in particular, Tyger. We do have a problem with magical thinking, though.

The fact that a gyro handles just fine at cruise, and may even fly hands-off in those circumstances, doesn't mean it'll behave in a stable way in low G, or in a fast power-off glide, or in uncoordinated flight. High thrustline, center of pressure ahead of, and/or below, CG, or uncompensated torque will bite you quite unexpectedly.

It's the nature of these particular design issues that they often are nearly undetectable without formal tests. You can make an educated guess about their presence just by looking at a design, though. The one in the posted picture can reasonably be suspected of having all of these problems. Only systematic flight tests by an impartial pilot knowledgeable in such things can determine for sure, though.

Be very afraid if a designer or promoter says something like "Don't worry about that; I have selected a control leverage ratio so that it's all good." Such claims amount to declaring that one has rescinded the laws of fluid dynamics.

Doug have you ever flown one of these new gyroplanes. I mean like DTA J-Ro, Calidus, M24, Kalithea etc.
 

Doug Riley

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Abid:

I've flown dual in a Groen conversion RAF with Jim Mayfield and in a Magni with Greg Gremminger.
 

Greg Vos

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Doug have you ever flown one of these new gyroplanes. I mean like DTA J-Ro, Calidus, M24, Kalithea etc.
I have flown the DTA… it’s a nice machine with no handling issues a bit fiddly with door interlocking micro switches that prohibit pre rotation if doors are not latched
I found the build quality of the DTA to be of a high standard
 

martin-av8r

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I have flown the DTA… it’s a nice machine with no handling issues a bit fiddly with door interlocking micro switches that prohibit pre rotation if doors are not latched
I found the build quality of the DTA to be of a high standard
Greg i think you are an experiance pilot with probably more than the average piloting skills

i think i know of 2 DTA fatal , with only the pilot on board with rotax 914 turbo and the 2 machine torque roll

yes it is usually pilot error

you are also a good helicopter pilot , vs only gyroplane pilot with many time the accident pilot are low time

i think with euro style gyro with the big tail far back from the CG they dont PPO i think they torque roll before PPO

and more easily with how lightly loaded and higher power the machine is

i am just a student pilot , but i know a couple torque roll , in the condition i said above

one of the problem i see the more the power with lighly loaded machine the closer the coffins corners are

that can bite a low hours pilot that do the mistake in a steep climb to push the cyclic at the top or even the midle of a sustained high angle climb without reducing the power in is climb before aplying the cyclic forward

whe know this is more accident prone with a high power 915

whe see the flying data from Abid flight testing the GWS from Mike

i can post this in another thread to not polute this thread and remove it from here

the problem is always that whe dont know what we dont know... about high power machine g load rotor rpm

steap climb and how closed... we are from the coffins corners that can bite fast a mistake
 

Greg Vos

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A good instructor who teaches you to feel the machine is invaluable, having high power is never a problem (the DTA was not over powered by any means) I see it often the instructor teaches by numbers alone I prefer that a student pilot feels and experience’s the roll pitch and torque and your instructor should be able to identify with your levels of exp and comfort
the key with high power gyroplanes is to feed in the power smoothly and be able to feel if it will cavitate. ( prop slipping) same as vortex ring state in a Heli she warns you a few seconds before the aircraft enters that condition and as long as your trained on how to get out if it’s no issue .
Of topic but as a matter of interest the Trojan Gyro I fly has a tad over 300Hp again we are just gentle with the power application , again one of its draw backs is it can climb so fast we can actually lose Rrpm during a long climb and therefore despite it being able to achieve 3000Ft/m climb we demonstrate and discourage that rate of climb angle
 

martin-av8r

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A good instructor who teaches you to feel the machine is invaluable, having high power is never a problem (the DTA was not over powered by any means) I see it often the instructor teaches by numbers alone I prefer that a student pilot feels and experience’s the roll pitch and torque and your instructor should be able to identify with your levels of exp and comfort
the key with high power gyroplanes is to feed in the power smoothly and be able to feel if it will cavitate. ( prop slipping) same as vortex ring state in a Heli she warns you a few seconds before the aircraft enters that condition and as long as your trained on how to get out if it’s no issue .
Of topic but as a matter of interest the Trojan Gyro I fly has a tad over 300Hp again we are just gentle with the power application , again one of its draw backs is it can climb so fast we can actually lose Rrpm during a long climb and therefore despite it being able to achieve 3000Ft/m climb we demonstrate and discourage that rate of climb angle
thank you for your advice
 
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