Fatal - Magni M24 near Butzbach, Germany

[Kai Kern]

Repacking costs on the Cirrus are mostly due to the Cirrus being a certified aircraft. Certified means the parachute must repacked every 10 years. And the manufacturer specifies the exact parts and procedure. -No second source. No option not to repack it. It's why the experimental market is so large in the US.

As for gyroplanes. I have found this on google. https://www.galaxysky.cz/gyro-amp-helicopters-s65-en I don't know how real it is.

Nice find. In Europe every LSA manufacturer has an optional parachute in their price lists. But no gyrocopter manufacturer offers this. I wonder why. But it's worth looking into this.

 

[Kai Kern]

I don’t think the risk can be eliminated but it should not be that 80% crashes result in a fire either.

If you are referring to Magnis, these numbers seem high. Just yesterday the next M24 made an emergency landing on some beach in Australia without a post-impact fire. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/268254

 

[TyroGyro]

To be clear, after undertaking probably the most comprehensive analysis of the Big-3 modern-generation gyro fatal accidents, I find:-

About 70% of fatal accidents are indeed accompanied by post-crash fire. I doubt there is much difference between manufacturers.

A small proportion of these (probably about 5-10%) would not have been fatal, but for the post-crash fire. We had a case in point in France in August 2021.

Non-fatal accidents, of which there are many, are rarely accompanied by fire.

 

[Abid]

If you are referring to Magnis, these numbers seem high. Just yesterday the next M24 made an emergency landing on some beach in Australia without a post-impact fire. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/268254

Kai
An emergency landing on a beach and then a flip over due to soft sand is hardly what I am talking about. I am talking about crashes. I can only say with confidence only what I know. That simply is since I have been on this forum (2014) pretty much all fatal crashes and serious non-fatal crashes from around the world in gyroplanes show up and in that fire is disproportionally higher in Magni (though I agree they may not quite be 80% and I did not mean to imply a specific calculated stat for Magni there) than any other brand. Magni makes a nice gyroplane but it doesn't mean they shouldn't take notice of something like that and make a good product even better

 

[Kai Kern]

Kai
An emergency landing on a beach and then a flip over due to soft sand is hardly what I am talking about. I am talking about crashes. I can only say with confidence only what I know. That simply is since I have been at this forum (2014) pretty much all fatal crashes and serious non-fatal crashes from around the world in gyroplanes show up and in that fire is disproportionally higher in Magni than any other brand. Magni makes a nice gyroplane but it doesn't mean they shouldn't take notice of something like that and make a good product even better

Neither you nor me looked into the stats or made our own. But I trust your gut feeling that there is a dangerous disproportion.

In GA there are planes such as the Cirrus which have a terrible fatality statistic because of their tendency to light up after a crash. Although it is a long known fact they still haven't improved a lot. They even catch fire after pulling the chute.

Maybe Magni is a similar case.

 

[Abid]

Cirrus actually used to use BRS but about 12 years ago hired BRS technical engineers and developed the chute on their own using their experience. I am surprised BRS did not sue them. It would be nice to look at the accident stats that Steve (from UK) and others have collected and really see the disproportion of instances of fire. There is a point at which if the crash is so hard and fatal whether the aircraft catches fire does not enhance immediate safety for the occupants (unfortunately they are dead regardless) but it does create problems in investigation to get to the root cause but if the occupants were alive post crash, definitely perishing due to the fire is the most sad thing.

 

[Mike G]

Rick E

workshop of home builders | Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety | Facebook

Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

www.facebook.com

This guy Luca Vanzin has developed impact resistant tanks for the ELA 07 and his own very lightweight single seat gyro. You can contact him here
Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

I've been toying with the idea of fitting one to my ELA but they're not cheap.
Mike G

 

[XXavier]

Rick E

workshop of home builders | Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety | Facebook

Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

www.facebook.com

This guy Luca Vanzin has developed impact resistant tanks for the ELA 07 and his own very lightweight single seat gyro. You can contact him here
Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

I've been toying with the idea of fitting one to my ELA but they're not cheap.
Mike G

Very valuable info. Thanks...

 

[Rick E]

Rick E

workshop of home builders | Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety | Facebook

Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

www.facebook.com

This guy Luca Vanzin has developed impact resistant tanks for the ELA 07 and his own very lightweight single seat gyro. You can contact him here
Gyroflyng 360 è WT safety tanks precision and safety. [email protected]

I've been toying with the idea of fitting one to my ELA but they're not cheap.
Mike G

Thanks Mike, shame all manufacturers don’t copy this idea. I think without post impact fire the survival rate for gyro crashes would be much better?

 

[Tyger]

Thanks Mike, shame all manufacturers don’t copy this idea. I think without post impact fire the survival rate for gyro crashes would be much better?

Of course it would be better not to have a fire, or fewer fires, anyway, but it is not easy to say with any degree of certainty that the survival rate would actually be much better. To quote TyroGyro, above, only "a small proportion of these [fatal crashes] (probably about 5-10%) would not have been fatal, but for the post-crash fire". I think this is a reasonable estimate.
In my opinion, any gyro accident with an impact serious enough to result in a fire is going to be hard for passengers to survive, particularly in a vehicle, let's face it, as flimsy as a gyroplane. From what we know of the accident that started this thread, it seems pretty clear that it was not the fire that killed the occupants, although more conclusive evidence may come out of the investigation in due course.
As far as "all" manufacturers using this idea, do even ELA actually incorporate this into all their gyros now? Have they tested how well it actually works? Rick E, if so, would you actually be willing to trade in your aircraft for an ELA today?

 

[Rick E]

Of course it would be better not to have a fire, or fewer fires, anyway, but it is not easy to say with any degree of certainty that the survival rate would actually be much better. To quote TyroGyro, above, only "a small proportion of these [fatal crashes] (probably about 5-10%) would not have been fatal, but for the post-crash fire". I think this is a reasonable estimate.
In my opinion, any gyro accident with an impact serious enough to result in a fire is going to be hard for passengers to survive, particularly in a vehicle, let's face it, as flimsy as a gyroplane. From what we know of the accident that started this thread, it seems pretty clear that it was not the fire that killed the occupants, although more conclusive evidence may come out of the investigation in due course.
As far as "all" manufacturers using this idea, do even ELA actually incorporate this into all their gyros now? Have they tested how well it actually works? Rick E, if so, would you actually be willing to trade in your aircraft for an ELA today?

You may be right Tyger but having attended a number of fatal gyro accidents I support any initiative that promotes gyro safety. Even if only one life is saved it would be well worth the effort.

 

[Tyger]

You may be right Tyger but having attended a number of fatal gyro accidents I support any initiative that promotes gyro safety. Even if only one life is saved it would be well worth the effort.

The problem I have with the "even if it saves only one life" idea is, we don't actually believe this.
Using this maxim, we could just ban all aircraft or, say, take road speed limits down 30mph, which would definitely (not maybe) save thousands of lives (not "only one"). But no one wants to take such steps. There is always a tradeoff between utility, safety, and cost.

At What Cost (Published 2011)

A look at the cold accounting that determines the value of things, even things considered priceless.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Doug Riley]

All aircraft are flimsy compared to surface vehicles, especially considering the enormous forces involved in an unplanned return to earth. This fact comes into especially sharp focus when we try to design flying cars, boats, submarines, etc. (Apologies to Tom Swift and his seacopter.)

Despite that, it's also true that there were few post-crash fires in Bensens. As some will recall, the stock B-8M used a steel outboard-motor gas tank, mounted on steel angle iron under the seat. It was just about bomb-proof -- and weighed in accordingly.

The advent, first, of plastic tanks, and, then, of enclosed gyros, resulted in greater crash-fire hazards. A tank that's (1) plastic and (2) within an enclosed crew space, is probably more hazardous than need be. "Plastic" includes composites, which are plastic with reinforcing fibers.

Certain gyro designs that feature this combination of factors might be safer with some other fuel-carrying arrangement.

 

[Tyger]

"Oh Tom, is it really safe?"
A young lady—an exceedingly pretty young lady, she could be called—stood with one small, gloved hand on the outstretched wing of an aeroplane, and looked up at a young man, attired in a leather, fur-lined suit, who sat in the cockpit of the machine just above her.
"Safe, Mary?" repeated the pilot, as he reached in under the hood of the craft to make sure about one of the controls. "Why, you ought to know by this time that I wouldn't go up if it wasn't safe!"
"Oh, yes, I know, Tom. It may be all right for you, but I've never been up in this kind of airship before, and I want to know if it's safe for me."
The young man leaned over the edge of the padded cockpit, and clasped in his rather grimy hand the neatly gloved one of the young lady. And though the glove was new, and fitted the hand perfectly, there was no attempt to withdraw it. Instead, the young lady seemed to be very glad indeed that her hand was in such safe keeping.
"Mary!" exclaimed the young man, "if it wasn't safe—as safe as a church—I wouldn't dream of taking you up!" and at the mention of "church" Mary Nestor blushed just the least bit. Or perhaps it was that the prospective excitement of the moment caused the blood to surge into her cheeks. Have it as you will.
"Come, Mary! you're not going to back out the last minute, are you?" asked Tom Swift. "Everything is all right. I've made a trial flight, and you've seen me come down as safely as a bird. You promised to go up with me. I won't go very high if you don't like it, but my experience has been that, once you're off the ground, it doesn't make any difference how high you go. You'll find it very fascinating. So skip along to the house, and Mrs. Baggert will help you get into your togs."
"Shall I have to wear all those things—such as you have on?" asked Mary, blushing again.
"Well, you'll be more comfortable in a fur-lined leather suit," asserted Tom. "And if it does make you look like an Eskimo, why I'm sure it will be very becoming. Not that you don't look nice now," he hastened to assure Miss Nestor, "but an aviation suit will be very—well, fetching, I should say."
"If I could be sure it would 'fetch' me back safe, Tom—"
"That'll do! That'll do!" laughed the young aviator. "One joke like that is enough in a morning. It was pretty good, though. Now go on in and tog up."
"You're sure it's safe, Tom?"
"Positive! Trot along now. I want to fix a wire and—"
"Oh, is anything broken?" and the girl, who had started away from the aeroplane, turned back again.
"No, not broken. It's only a little auxiliary dingus I put on to make it easier to read the barograph, but I think I'll go back to the old system. Nothing to do with flying at all, except to tell how high up one is."
"That's just what I don't care to know, Tom," said Mary Nestor, with a smile. "If I could imagine I was sailing along only about ten feet in the air I wouldn't mind so much."
"Flying at that height would be the worst sort of danger. You leave it to me, Mary. I won't take you up above the clouds on this sky ride; though, later, I'm sure you'll want to try that. This is only a little flight. You've been promising long enough to take a trip with me, and now I believe you're trying to back out."
"No, really I'm not, Tom! Only, at the last minute, the machine looks so small and frail, and the sky is so—big—"


Oh Tom! It's so –big– !

 

[gyroxford]

Merin make good bladder tanks - see www.merin.it

 

[TyroGyro]

FINAL REPORT

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NLcq6gkjZoXGsSJdCeoTNF2dwF5VOvzZ/view?usp=sharing [internet auto-translated[

Sad. It WAS survivable, but for the fire. 100-hours pilot. RIP.

They didn't climb enough. Also, something about "anti-erosion strips" on the rotors, which I don't understand.

 

[BEN S]

Leading edge protection? I had some made of epoxy, they were WAY tougher then the propeller was.

 

[Abid]

All aircraft are flimsy compared to surface vehicles, especially considering the enormous forces involved in an unplanned return to earth. This fact comes into especially sharp focus when we try to design flying cars, boats, submarines, etc. (Apologies to Tom Swift and his seacopter.)

Despite that, it's also true that there were few post-crash fires in Bensens. As some will recall, the stock B-8M used a steel outboard-motor gas tank, mounted on steel angle iron under the seat. It was just about bomb-proof -- and weighed in accordingly.

The advent, first, of plastic tanks, and, then, of enclosed gyros, resulted in greater crash-fire hazards. A tank that's (1) plastic and (2) within an enclosed crew space, is probably more hazardous than need be. "Plastic" includes composites, which are plastic with reinforcing fibers.

Certain gyro designs that feature this combination of factors might be safer with some other fuel-carrying arrangement.

Doug
Having done certification dead drop testing on more than a dozen models to show compliance I can tell you that a crosslinked polyethylene plastic fuel tank behaves very differently than composite tanks. They are hardly even in the same boat. The composite tanks crack catastrophically where as plastic tanks deform elastically and usually come back to original shape. Anyway that’s just something to know. In short plastic tanks have a much higher degree of crashworthiness than composite tanks. They take a lot more deformation before they crack and spill the fuel out.

 

[Tyger]

Sad. It WAS survivable, but for the fire. 100-hours pilot. RIP.

They didn't climb enough. Also, something about "anti-erosion strips" on the rotors, which I don't understand.

I am not sure I agree with your first statement. While it's obvious that they were still alive when the fire started (soot in lungs), not too many vertical falls from 22m are going to be survivable. They would have hit the ground at nearly 50mph.

The "anti-erosion" strips were probably to reduce some small pitting that can occur at the tips of the composite rotors. They are not recommended by Magni, I think for good reason. Heck, Magni forbid even paint on their rotors. A one meter strip would cover nearly the last quarter of each blade. I imagine strips of that length, and in that position, would have affected performance significantly.
Erosion protection strips for the leading edge usually impair the aerodynamic blade profile quality and thereby reduce the possible lift. These adhesive strips were not intended by the autogyro manufacturer.

But finally, why, why, why take the risk of taking off into rising, forested terrain when there are a number of other options?
That's my key takeaway – low-time pilot error.

 

[TyroGyro]

I am not sure I agree with your first statement. While it's obvious that they were still alive when the fire started (soot in lungs), not too many vertical falls from 22m are going to be survivable. They would have hit the ground at nearly 50mph.

I am going off the official report:- [autotranslated by an internet site]

"aspects of survival​

According to the autopsy, the collision with the trees and the impact with the ground did not lead to serious injuries."​

You can find the orginal German here, if you think the autotranslation is incorrect.

https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Untersuchungsberichte/2021/Bericht_21-0875-3X_MagniGyro_Butzbach.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

"die Kollision... nicht zu schweren verletzungen"​