Fatal - Magni M24 near Butzbach, Germany

Kai Kern

Newbie
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Alicante, Spain
Aircraft
Diamond DA40
Total Flight Time
600
After take off from the Butzbach airfield near Frankfurt, Germany, a gyrocopter seemed to have insufficient climb and crashed onto a road nearby and immediately caught fire. The two persons on board, a 37- and a 49 year-old men have not survived the impact.

For right now nor more details on the type of gyroplane or registration have been made.

gyrocopter-absturz-butzbach-100__t-1632635766652_v-16to9.jpg

 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,256
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Thoughts with family and friends.

Immediate post crash fire again. Ruptured fuel tanks.

Agree with Fara that possibly metal tanks give a better chance of not having that happen.

Wonder what happened with Explo Control a mesh that could be put into fuel tanks that helped control fuel slosh, and in the event of an accident help cut down on uncontrolled fuel dispersal/fire/exlosion.



The FAA have convened a group to advise.
 

Kevin_Richey

Yamaha gyro...Oregon, USA
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
2,484
Location
US
Gyronauts on the forum familiar w/ the various makes should be able to ascertain the make & model of that burned wreckage.

Items such as the rotorblades manufactured shape where they connect to the hub bar, the engine (after?)-mufflers present, the wide, circular shape of the rear cabin as well as what appears to be a wheel hub missing it's tire on the forward right portion of the wreck, etc., suggests an enclosed SxS gyroplane.

Usually the most commonly manufactured gyroplane in any particular country is the majority of gyroplanes owned/flown there. Thus, possibly a Cavalon, by Autogyro of Germany. But, doesn't that hub bar attachment point for the rotorblades look like the Magni rotor system?

The mast appears to have been bent/broken rearwards enough for the rotorblades & hub bar to be aft of the engine. Possibly over the tail assembly.
 
Last edited:

Mike G

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,631
Location
Lillebonne France
Aircraft
Owned Magni M16 now ELA 07
Total Flight Time
550FW + 500 gyro
Magni rotor. Since they don't sell rotors almost certain it's a Magni.
Mike G
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,256
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Given the reliability of Magnis, and statistics, likely.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,955
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 380 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
Gyronauts on the forum familiar w/ the various makes should be able to ascertain the make & model of that burned wreckage.

Items such as the rotorblades manufactured shape where they connect to the hub bar, the engine (after?)-mufflers present, the wide, circular shape of the rear cabin as well as what appears to be a wheel hub missing it's tire on the forward right portion of the wreck, etc., suggests an enclosed SxS gyroplane.

Usually the most commonly manufactured gyroplane in any particular country is the majority of gyroplanes owned/flown there. Thus, possibly a Cavalon, by Autogyro of Germany. But, doesn't that hub bar attachment point for the rotorblades look like the Magni rotor system?

The mast appears to have been bent/broken rearwards enough for the rotorblades & hub bar to be aft of the engine. Possibly over the tail assembly.

May they RIP.
My condolences to friends and family.

Yes my first thought was Cavalon being in Germany but looking at the rotor hub bar portion and white composite rotor seems to suggest a Magni M24 perhaps
 
Last edited:

chrisk

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
335
Location
Round Rock TX
Aircraft
Magni M24, Turbo Mooney 231
Total Flight Time
1000
Looks like a Magni M24. I base that on the front fork. The square frame tubing. The hub bar. The location of the radiator and oil cooler. A composite rotor. And the circular firewall.
 

Kai Kern

Newbie
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Alicante, Spain
Aircraft
Diamond DA40
Total Flight Time
600
Given the reliability of Magnis, and statistics, likely.
Quite frankly, I highly doubt that it is possible to draw valid conclusions from the data we can possibly get. We might be able to find all accidents although reporting requirements vary from every country. (By the number of entries in the aviation safety database, the Auto-Gyro GmbH gyros such as Calidus, Cavalon and MTO Sport have 126 entries vs 38 entries for the Magnis)

We can put them in a relation to the number of registered or produced gyroplanes of this type. Auto-Gyro might have sold 2700 so far, Magni recently celebrated the production of gyro #1300. That's a relation 47/1000 for the Germans vs 29/1000 for the Italians.

We would have to filter out those accidents which are not attributed to a technical failure if we want to draw conclusions on the reliability of Magnis and put those accidents into a relationship of hours flown. Unfortunately, we don't have this data. Maybe the manufacturers have it but they sure won't ever share this data unless it becomes a legal requirement.

So all we know is we don't know enough.
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,256
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Was wondering if there was a comparison of gyro equipment failure accidents to the number of gyro T.0 /Landing accidents.( ie mechanical to pilot error accidents.)?
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
96
Location
Bryan, Texas
Aircraft
Cessna 140, Stinson 108-1, Culver V, Parsons Trainer
Total Flight Time
1000 hours
if you, the readers were king, what would you do to increase crash safety. Gyroplane manufactures are now commonly getting well over $100k for new machines. Granted the cost can be divided between the cost of the engine, the cost of the instruments, the cost of the airframe plus profits. it does seem the industry could do more to lessen the risk after crashing.
Leland Snow, the founder of Air Tractor, arguably one of the most successful manufacturers of crop dusters aircraft in Olney, Texas, had a very interesting philosophy which he put into practice when designing his aircraft. Simply stated, he came to the conclusion that to create A flame, you must have three things: oxygen, a fuel source and a source of ignition. He stated, there is little which can be done at removing the oxygen but he could keep the source of the fuel away from the ignition source. In his design, he ran all of his fuel lines on the opposite side of the aircraft from the electrical.
Seems like a reasonable philosophy and it worked for years with his piston engine designs. Where as crop dusters crash frequently his aircraft simply did not crash and burn.
What can we do to design better crash worthy machines without pricing ourselves out of the market? Things like a solenoid electrical isolation system at the fingertips of the pilot which isolates the electrical power away from the fuel tanks. Can the engine run on its own electrical system separate from the fuselages needs? Explosion proofed foam filled fuel tanks? Seems like a inexpensive solution or at least part of a solution.
None will prevent but all will help some.
No one can survive a crash to a sudden stop above 60 mph. The G forces on the body is just too much. This is why certified single engine aircraft have to stall less than 55 knots. They want the aircraft to be in control at those slower speeds for survival. This is why we wear seat belts. It is a shame to go through a windshield at a 20 mph car crash and perish.

Mast that fold and end up with the spinning rotor head head in the cockpit of a tandem configured Gyroplane does happen. Can designers control where the mast bends on impact? Can we design a cockpit where our heads and neck are not exposed to roll overs when the mast does crumple?Is that insturment panel support poised to be pushed through your chest on impact?

We all like the pusher configuration but is this the best placement of the engine for safety? Could we have a panic fire extinguisher system which mitigates the chance of fire? Even a small fire extinguisher onboard would be wise, if you are conscientious or conscious in more ways than one. Do we even consider the flammability of the clothes we wear when flying? Cotten will not sustain a flame once the source is removed. There is hardly any better protection than just 100% Cotten. Where is your fuel shut off valve and can you reach it? Is the electric fuel pump spewing fuel from a severed line after the crash? How about an inertia switch like our emergency locator transmitters which turn on at impact. How about one which kill all electrical on impact. How much would these things cost? How about aftermarket options?

I bet Vance can tell us what the racing industry does for just the things which I have mentioned.

What are we getting for our money? Maybe we should not depend on others, those who design or otherwise, for our safety. Seriously, what can we do to hedge our bets with this most important of gambles? ( Don’t climb out slower than your best glide speed )

I cant afford the new birds. I’m building my own fashioned after a very old design. A few of these things, I can do. The isolation of the electrical system is one.

The more broke you are the higher risk you must face Unfortunately.

I did not post this to stir things up or point too many fingers. These are my rambling, troubling thoughts which have been with me for some time now. I think we can do better or the insurance companies or the families or the lawyers will pressure the government force us to do so.

We all accept the risk but we are all capable of mistakes big and small. We all depend on mechanisms to not fail. We get that. i don’t want to die in a fender bender because there is a sharp metal edge or a bolt head ready to be driven through a fuel tank by a hot engine on impact or leaking fuel cap that is not secured. Not saying at all this has ever happened, but it could.

let’s talk about this. Don’t yell and scream. Let’s take this opportunity to discuss this for the greater good of the sport we enjoy. Somethings we can do and some we can’t because the birds would be so fat they could not fly. It is all a giant compromise.

Tony in Texas brought up the idea of the possible increased safety of the folding mast. He might have a valid point. Let’s talk.
 
Last edited:

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,955
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 380 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
It’s obviously anecdotal but since I have been on this forum there seems to be pattern of fire in way too many Magni incidents and accidents. Fires cannot be prevented completely in severe cases. But they can be in many. They hinder real cause investigation, they harm or even kill occupants when they actually survived the accident before fires and they are not the way to go if you survived otherwise. We should definitely think about crashworthiness a bit in ASTM standards.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
96
Location
Bryan, Texas
Aircraft
Cessna 140, Stinson 108-1, Culver V, Parsons Trainer
Total Flight Time
1000 hours
I am super thrilled you have responded. Input from experts such as yourself is what we need. What are the obstacles to crash risk you have seen which are shared in the various designs and configurations? Typically what crash testing is done to identify problem areas. I expect Solid Works and other CAD platforms have features which can virtually test crash factors without destroying an operational machine with high speed cameras whirring. Seriously I find this fascinating and a challenge. Somethings, I expect can be resolved with in a design and others not without starting over.
 

Brian Jackson

Platinum Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
3,311
Location
Hamburg, New Jersey USA
Aircraft
GyroBee Variant - Under Construction
I am super thrilled you have responded. Input from experts such as yourself is what we need. What are the obstacles to crash risk you have seen which are shared in the various designs and configurations? Typically what crash testing is done to identify problem areas. I expect Solid Works and other CAD platforms have features which can virtually test crash factors without destroying an operational machine with high speed cameras whirring. Seriously I find this fascinating and a challenge. Somethings, I expect can be resolved with in a design and others not without starting over.
To my knowledge (as a CAD guy myself) programs like SolidWorks are good at FEA (Finite Element Analysis) where structural loads and integrity can be determined. I am unfamiliar with what engineering method for modeling & analyzing a fuel tank rupture would be. Crumple zoning and subsequent clash detection could be useful for designing a roll cage around it, but I have no idea how a designer could predict the trajectories of fragments and broken bits whirling near it in a crash.

I, too, am interested in learning more about aviation fuel tank safety and the engineering that goes into them.
 

Kai Kern

Newbie
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Alicante, Spain
Aircraft
Diamond DA40
Total Flight Time
600
It’s obviously anecdotal but since I have been on this forum there seems to be pattern of fire in way too many Magni incidents and accidents. Fires cannot be prevented completely in severe cases. But they can be in many. They hinder real cause investigation, they harm or even kill occupants when they actually survived the accident before fires and they are not the way to go if you survived otherwise. We should definitely think about crashworthiness a bit in ASTM standards.
Indeed on a first sight you will find a lot of crashes with some fire involved:

 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,820
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
I bet Vance can tell us what the racing industry does for just the things which I have mentioned.
I suspect Bill mentioned me because of my experience running a streamlined motorcycle at Bonneville so I will share what little I know and then try to relate that to flying gyroplanes.

My fuel tank was aluminum without a bladder securely mounted.

Technical inspection would check for things that were likely to pierce the fuel tank in an accident.

All my fuel lines had fire sleeves.

I wore a five layer fire suit with a Nomex balaclava under my helmet and Nomex socks and fire resistant boots. I had fire resistant gloves.

My helmet had a Nomex liner instead of the more common nylon and had a different air inlet.

I had a switch that would disconnect the battery at its ground.

There was information written outside about how to get me out.

A fire wall with effective seals was required.

I had too separate five pound Halon fire bottles. They could be manually fired or had valves that would go off at a specific temperature. They had nozzles in the driver’s compartment and in the engine bay. Breathing Halon is not good for you and it would not work well in most gyroplanes because it needs to be contained to be effective.

Most of these measures would not help much with gyroplanes.

I had a full body, a roll age a six point harness with arm restraints.

When I had my more dramatic accident (out of four) they had to cut me out of it.

A five layer fires suit made me look like the Michelin and was not comfortable in the high temperatures at Bonneville.

When I fly I wear a single layer Nomex flight suit with cotton undergarments and wool socks. Nomex is not fire proof, only fire resistant.

Nylon will burn and melt to your skin.

I feel having a master switch with a relay to the battery has value.

I have found this allows the larger wires to be well away from the fuel tank.

I feel fire sleeves on the fuel lines have value.

I feel a firewall has value.

Part of my gyroplane emergency procedures preflight briefing includes rapid egress in case of fire.

I prefer metal fuel tanks.

On preflight inspection of enclosed gyroplanes I have found several with the vent incorrectly done creating a potential fire hazard.
 

Attachments

  • miriah7.jpg
    miriah7.jpg
    80.1 KB · Views: 12

TyroGyro

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
217
Location
Liverpool, UK
Aircraft
MTO Sport
Total Flight Time
121
Sad scenes taken immediately before and after the crash. Magni M24, confirmed as D-MDBE, built in 2014.


2021-09-26-BZ1-106-1.jpg


Sincere condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
 
Last edited:
Top