My Opinions and Observations.
My Opinions and Observations.
Vance,
I have not flown a MT but I have flown a Magni M-16, and it will nose up if you add power. This is not a question of opinions, is a fact. Besides, any gyro which pitches down the nose when adding power it is an unstable gyro. The Ela pitch its nose up. I guess that the MT would do the same thing. I’m totally sure that they don’t pitch down when you add power, Vance. I’m not going to discuss about if they are slight HTL or not: they are stable gyros because when you add power they pitch its nose up. Their HS is working perfectly compensating the HTL (overcompensating in the Ela’s case).
I have talked about this question because is a big misconception to think that shutting down power in the top of a bell shaped maneuver you will avoid PPO. In the Magni’s case this is uneventful. In the Ela’s, it is worse to pull back the power because is overcompensating and it will nose down too much (which is not very good if you are in a low g situation). Probably it is not a coincidence that all these accidents in short final has happen with the power at idle..
My opinion is totally divergent from yours. I’m going to put the things in this way: It is impossible to have a drag over if there is not a concurrent low g situation. This is a fact too, at least if we are talking about Ela’s. And this is the case in this thread. I’m an Ela pilot with a lot of experience in this aircraft and I can ensure you that it will not drag over in a normal 1 g flight situation.
Of course it can drag over in a very low g flight condition. If you want to discuss what is the cause of the control loss in this case you can. However my point is that all sustained 0 g situations conduct to a total loss of control. I know that you don’t believe that is possible to have sustained 0 g situations in a gyro. My answer to that is that more than half a second is a sustained 0 g situation, and unfortunately It is possible to have 0 g situations lasting enough to conduct to accidents.
JAL, I’m not talking about PPO. I’m talking about a 0g event that produces a loss of control. No 0g implies no loss of control: nothing happens.
It is very simple: every gyro control problem starts with a very low g situation.
Any way I understand your point about the forces acting on the pod that can trigger the drag over. However the control authority of the rotor will able to counteract this effect, except in too low g situations.
I agree with you and Chuck when you say that the HS is ineffective in a heavy side slip. However I totally disagree with the concept that in that case you will be flying a pure HTL.
The HS is still in its place under the effect of the propeller blow, Sir. Your explanation about the way in which the HS gives stability is nice. However there is an additional factor: our HS (Magni, Ela or MT) are providing a true negative lift, which compensates the HTL. That means that if you have power in a side slip you are not in the same situation than a HTL without HS. If you drop all the power to idle, then there is not HTL (no power no thrust).
You are flying MT’s. Please do the following test: at a secure flying altitude at cruise speed trim the gyro and don’t act on the stick. Then low the power to 3500 rpm and look what happens. Then come back your first power setting and you will get initial flying condition: cruising speed at leveled flight. Now add more power, say something like 5200 rpm.
I guess than in the first case your gyro will pitch its nose down (and in the second it will pitch up). This is important, because it dictates what you should never do to recover a low situation: reduce power.
These are my two points: 0 g is the main cause of control loss and we have to use the power in the opposite way that everybody thinks to recover very low G situations in these kind of machines.
Ferran
Without power it is impossible to have a Power Push Over (PPO). By definition power is required for a power push over.
Ferran brought up center of gravity in relation to thrust line as though he had measured it. I didn’t ask him to discuss it; I asked him to share the numbers.
We don’t know the cause of “all these accidents” and I didn’t know we knew the throttle setting on this particular accident in France.
I won’t discuss this particular accident because I know so little about it.
I feel Ferran may also be confused about a drag over; particular in a slip.
I feel Ferran is misusing the language again by redefining sustained as a half second. I suspect most well designed gyroplanes could manage a half second of zero Gs. I would define a half second event as a transient condition.
I have not flown an ELA so I don’t know anything about its flight characteristics. I have flown an M16 Magni near the gross weight limit and the one I flew pitched down at 40kts when adding power and pitched up when power was reduced.
There are many dead gyroplane pilots who did not get there beginning with a sustained zero G event even as Ferran defines it. I feel Ferran’s assertion that a sustained zero G event is the only way to get into trouble in a gyroplane is dangerous.
I feel Ferran’s fantasy that he can feel the approach of a non recoverable event is invalidated when experienced pilots crash a gyroplane. I suspect Ferran has no idea how close to a non recoverable event he has come. I feel a successful outcome of a maneuver does not necessarily indicate that it is safe.
In my opinion a “sustained zero G event” is not a necessary part of the accident sequence in a gyroplane.
In my opinion any gyroplane with the center of pressure below the center of gravity has a tendency to roll in a slip. I flew with low time gyroplane certified flight instructor in an MTO Sport and in my opinion it rolled when he demonstrated a slip to descend at 60kts indicated air speed. I felt we were near the limit of his ability to command the disk to counter the roll. We were probably sustaining more than .6 Gs even by Ferran’s definition of sustained in the gusty conditions. I asked the CFI about it afterword and he claimed it was a completely safe maneuver.
It is a lovely day and I am off to fly with my friend Bob.
Thank you, Vance