Fatal Gyro Accident in Putnam County, Fl

[Resasi]

Rochester (NY?).

This Rochester is in UK.

 

[Abid]

This Rochester is in UK.

Probably even worse cold then

 

[Tyger]

Believe it or not, there are two Rochesters in NY. The older, smaller one is quite near me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Ulster_County,_New_York
Evidently there are two Rochesters in England also – one in Kent and one in Northumberland.

Just be glad you didn't go to Clarkson...

 

[Abid]

Believe it or not, there are two Rochesters in NY. The older, smaller one is quite near me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Ulster_County,_New_York
Evidently there are two Rochesters in England also – one in Kent and one in Northumberland.

Just be glad you didn't go to Clarkson...

Never knew that. I went to RIT. What the heck was I thinking coming from warm near beach city to that

 

[WaspAir]

There's one in Minnesota, too, and it's even colder.

 

[Resasi]

Kasota was plenty cold enough for me. Coming from Africa, over 20 years working in Saudi, son in Florida, I do like the sunshine.

 

[Abid]

Just to update the Putnum county crash had no post fire on AR-1 914 (open) and all remains were salvaged. The investigator verified that to me.

 

[Resasi]

Speaks well of fuel tank integrity, assuming the accident was not due to lack of fuel.

Any chance of calculation/ EFIS recording of what might have been in the tanks at around the time of the accident?

 

[Abid]

Speaks well of fuel tank integrity, assuming the accident was not due to lack of fuel.

Any chance of calculation/ EFIS recording of what might have been in the tanks at around the time of the accident?

Well supposedly the tanks are still there attached and may be the fuel is still there. I don't know if flight log in the EFIS records fuel quantity. Fuel quantity varies if you are climbing, fuel goes to the back and the sender is in the front and reads much lower. It reads right when level flight is resumed.
The Utah one also did not bust open or catch fire. That's good but I can tell you we don't have bladders or foam in the tank. It simply metal tanks attached to metal frame and backed up with a strap

 

[j4flyer]

After reading the posts, and this having NOTHING to do with either accident, I wonder if range markings on a rotor tach, green and red for example might be worthwhile. Perhaps , a low rotor rpm warning light similar to an fixed wing stall warning might be worthwhile ? Both with low time pilots in mind.

 

[WaspAir]

Warning lights and horns for low main rotor rpm can be found on some helicopters, where one has collective control and can really do something about it easily and promptly.

The A&S 18A and J-2 gyros I've owned all had conventional rotor tach markings with flight and pre-spin ranges color-coded.

For low time pilots, perhaps a g-meter might have some limited value, but any such provision might suffer from distraction of or misinterpretation by the newbie, and not really help in practice.

There is a negative transfer issue for fixed wing pilots who dump the nose in response to stall warning, the opposite of what's useful for low rotor rpm.

 

[Resasi]

"There is a negative transfer issue for fixed wing pilots who dump the nose in response to stall warning, the opposite of what's useful for low rotor rpm."

An excellent point, and one I found and have mentioned before, when training pilots unused to the top mounted pusher installation of the Lake Buccaneer, who, on power reduction would instinctively correct for a nose drop, only to exacerbate its natural nose up pitching on power reduction.

Muscle memory can bite badly when it an incorrect instinctive reaction.

 

[Abid]

After reading the posts, and this having NOTHING to do with either accident, I wonder if range markings on a rotor tach, green and red for example might be worthwhile. Perhaps , a low rotor rpm warning light similar to an fixed wing stall warning might be worthwhile ? Both with low time pilots in mind.

They already are there and in the EFIS on these aircraft low G warnings would have come up starting at 0.7 Gs as well

 

[Greg Vos]

Keep it simple is my opinion, teach the student or converting pilot well, no need for over complex devises and alarms.
Yes in a Heli low Rrpm warning is diffrent because you are in control during flight in a gyro once your flying that takes care of itself, less is more sometimes in flying

 

[Abid]

Keep it simple is my opinion, teach the student or converting pilot well, no need for over complex devises and alarms.
Yes in a Heli low Rrpm warning is diffrent because you are in control during flight in a gyro once your flying that takes care of itself, less is more sometimes in flying

Generally I am of the same mindset. I look for simplicity in systems when it comes to VFR flying. I do not understand why people who are the least likely to be very tech savvy (read older pilots) want to get the most complex EFIS systems that do a thousand things. In my experience I have never seen it work to their benefit overall in airplanes, trikes or gyroplanes. Usually it results in frustration more than anything else.

Having said that having an EFIS that records critical data points like if the engine was running or quit one minute before airspeed and altitude went to zero (ish) or if the rotor RPM and g force went low before airspeed changed drastically etc. is a benefit simple instruments cannot provide for post accident analysis.

 

[giro5]

" I wonder if range markings on a rotor tach, green and red for example" A lot of people are unaware or unconcerned that 8 percent of the population (males only) do not see red or green. These are absolutely the worst choice of colors for this segment of the population. Unfortunately the people who make the "rules" are typically in the unaware or unconcerned group (translation ignorant and dumbshits)

 

[Mike G]

This was my first idea for a rotor flapping warning system. The LEDs around the ASI change as the rotor rpm changes.

I never thought about color blindness.
I didn't develop this because I felt that the pilot should be looking out of the cockpit not at his ASI.
Mike G

 

[Resasi]

I do not understand why people who are the least likely to be very tech savvy (read older pilots) want to get the most complex EFIS systems that do a thousand things. In my experience I have never seen it work to their benefit overall in airplanes, trikes or gyroplanes. Usually it results in frustration more than anything else.

It is rarely the 1000 things available that are wanted, and, you speak as a person who seems relatively unacquainted with flying with EFIS.

On a machine that has a one hour duration, not intended for cross country, or operating in relatively uncluttered airspace with few or no zonal restrictions, you have a relevant point. Not however, when operating in complex airspace, with heavier traffic concentrations...and as for weather awareness, on longer flights than an hour in any direction it becomes increasingly valuable.

As for 'tech savvy’, operating a system that has been set up, and that has been pruned of all unnecessary features, gives a much greater situational awareness in position, traffic proximity, and relevant weather, and, is a little different to having to install these systems oneself where different skill set becomes necessary.

How many/what percentage, of your high end AR’s have at least some form of EFIS installed?

Why?

 

[Abid]

It is rarely the 1000 things available that are wanted, and, you speak as a person who seems relatively unacquainted with flying with EFIS.

On a machine that has a one hour duration, not intended for cross country, or operating in relatively uncluttered airspace with few or no zonal restrictions, you have a relevant point. Not however, when operating in complex airspace, with heavier traffic concentrations...and as for weather awareness, on longer flights than an hour in any direction it becomes increasingly valuable.

As for 'tech savvy’, operating a system that has been set up, and that has been pruned of all unnecessary features, gives a much greater situational awareness in position, traffic proximity, and relevant weather, and, is a little different to having to install these systems oneself where different skill set becomes necessary.

How many/what percentage, of your high end AR’s have at least some form of EFIS installed?

Why?

I have flown more EFIS than I can count on my fingers. Probably 2500 hours of EFIS flying.
Mainly the EFIS was good so you could get moving map GPS and may be synthetic vision (though for VFR its not needed). Today many portable GPS like iFLY 740, Foreflight, Garmin Aera do a lot better than some of the EFIS in navigation with added advantage that you can take it to your house and program your route and bring it back and you are good for your XC. All the airspace is there on portable GPS just as good. Most good ones use Jeppesen database or some subscription. Most connect to devices like echoUAT via WiFi and show ADSB weather and traffic on their moving map. These things just 7 years ago were just the domain of aviation specific EFIS and XM weather. Not any more.
With iS engines because of CanBus its easier to setup a digital small EFIS like MGL Xtreme etc. but it has no navigation and is fairly simple. That's ok. When one starts to get to the bigger EFIS's with more complexity, I'd take a iFly GPS or a Foreflight or Garmin Aera any day in VFR.
Peter Kalev flies in LA almost 4 times a week without an EFIS with Foreflight
EFIS should have made flying safer but the stats show it didn't. The reason is the pilot population in the US is getting older and cannot utilize all the information at their finger tips. Its just a tool. Only as good as how much you know how to use it effectively. In VFR many people's head is down in the panel and that's not good either. Whether its Garmin, GRT, MGL, Dynon, Advanced Flight Systems, Avidyne each has their separate interface without any industry wide standardization. We provide customer what they want but if you are asking me personally for VFR gyro. Simple small EFIS for engine monitoring and flight instruments and all navigation, traffic, weather and airspace on a portable completely disconnected from the EFIS. That's what I would do. IFR is a different story.

 

[Resasi]

I have flown more EFIS than I can count on my fingers. Probably 2500 hours of EFIS flying.

Since we are quoting figures dug out the log book. Accepted a Citation V in Wichita with EFIS on 10th Dec 1989 to fly to Saudi Arabia and at the time had 12,600hrs. So around 4,400hrs of various other types of EFIS in various other a/c types, flying globally over the next 14 years. Am acquainted with various types of EFIS and what they offer.

Flying since I retired, much simpler, either basic 6 pack, or, just ALT, ASI, compass and slip string, which regretfully leaves me entirely unacquainted with the recent developments with Ipads, Foreflight, Sky Demon, Garmin Pilot, Jeppesen Mobile, Air Nav Pro, Direct To, Uncle Tom Cobly and the rest.

I chose MGL and will see how I fare. The Eclipse and AR1 I last flew with Greg both I think had Extreme which I felt was too small for an open gyro hence the Explorer. Yes, setting it up has not been my forte. It may well be overkill, but if, when, I get the chance to finish, I am hoping it will give me some information that will be useful, and I can use.