FATAL - ELA Aviacion ELA-08 ZU-EHW, Overvlugte private airstrip, Limpopo, South Africa 10 NOV 2021

Post 118 is a great point. A feature of civilian self paid flying is that the only barrier is the ability to keep throwing money at it and [ I talk for the UK here] the environment as it exists around Gyroplane is too small for it to keep itself honest. What do I mean by that?

There are some minor exceptions but here we have 2 manufacturers and one of those perhaps sells double digit aircraft a year, perhaps. So we have one manufacturer, AutoGyro. That makes it very hard to have a critical exchange and not blow yourself up.

We have a training structure with few instructors, fewer examiners and even fewer of either with flight time in anything other than a gyroplane made after 2010. No microlight time, aeroplane, helicopter, zero. Just gyroplane and just "modern" gyroplanes and in the main just AutoGyro gyroplane time...

We also have almost no instructors that think outside of the "Gyropedia".

Is that bad? If you are on inside of that bubble then you will overwhelmingly say not. Others have articulated their own view on its flaws and my own issue is that it seems a focus of the system is to generate a rationale to sustain the system. Some examples. Ground school as far as things like air law, met, nav, etc in 2023 are well trodden paths. We don't need new acronyms to replace those that have existed for decades, we don't need the invention of new steps in a process just because that fits one particular niche, we don't need aircraft with 2 pages of A4 sheet pertaining to be a checklist - in order to get airborne. Most importantly we don't need process just to tick a box such that if it does go wrong we can show authority "look we did cover that point because I ticked this box".

Worst however is a suspicion that process is changed in order to keep or create an impression that there is something "new" or the content is "fresh" and those new and fresh things are behind a paywall, so hey you may know about all the things we said were appropriate in 2020, but hey this is 2023... we have invented new stuff and arh to see that... pay me.

That isn't flight safety, that is an attempt to "nickel and dime" a way through keen and eager new pilots and no matter if it is obvious you are not suitable to become a pilot we will keep you going as long as you want to keep paying....

Now of course that isn't every instructor, not every examiner but there are many in the UK with that whiff and it isn't great.

In the USA we have more than two manufactures of gyroplanes to choose from.

Most of the flight instructors in the USA I know have time in other types of aircraft and many have time in single place gyroplanes.

“We” in the USA have lots of flight instructors and examiners who think outside of the “Gyropedia”.

In the USA it is important to have documentation to show a particular item has been discussed in order to manage oversight from the FAA and law suits. I have had two inquires from the FAA and managed them both with documentation.

My approach to flight instruction is constantly changing because I learn from every learner. It is not because I want to appear to be new and fresh.

I would be disappointed if Gyropedia didn’t continue to develop as they learn how to be better.

The gyroplanes I train in continue to change.

One of the things I like about Gyropedia is it has ways to quantify a learners shortcomings allowing clients to determine if they should continue and specifically addressing the things they need to do to move forward.
 
In the USA we have more than two manufactures of gyroplanes to choose from.

Most of the flight instructors in the USA I know have time in other types of aircraft and many have time in single place gyroplanes.

“We” in the USA have lots of flight instructors and examiners who think outside of the “Gyropedia”.

In the USA it is important to have documentation to show a particular item has been discussed in order to manage oversight from the FAA and law suits. I have had two inquires from the FAA and managed them both with documentation.

My approach to flight instruction is constantly changing because I learn from every learner. It is not because I want to appear to be new and fresh.

I would be disappointed if Gyropedia didn’t continue to develop as they learn how to be better.

The gyroplanes I train in continue to change.

One of the things I like about Gyropedia is it has ways to quantify a learners shortcomings allowing clients to determine if they should continue and specifically addressing the things they need to do to move forward.
And how does Gyropedia do this better or more effectively than the old school way where in a class you sit with a student discuss the lesson discuss the sortie, document the lesson ( using a pen, on paper secured in the student file) you look him in the eye..you get up and do drawings on a white board, he gets up and explains what his learnt, you write down his short comings or his understanding for that previous lesson and agree …student signs and then you write down what is to be covered in the next lesson..you list the wind, the Hobbs, the runway, ….you list the flight duration, the exercises covered …so you don’t do it in an App….so you can’t access it from you arm chair via there app ….these app and features don’t IMO make it a better platform than old school

Now try Gyropedia with no wifi or cell coverage? …..or suddenly your phone batt is flat …or the server is down ! as I say I can and do use a whiz wheel it works just fine….I’m sure a E3 is better it just does not work for me.

Yes the training aids and magnetic stick on graphics make the instructors job easier and saves him time .…all I’m saying is as far as I can see and no one has been able to convince me otherwise…that using a solid ground school and paper trail is just as good as Gyropedia and the training if done accordingly will make a safe pilot

as seen here is the British Rotarycraft syllabus …this with the other ground school books the students will need anyway to gain a licence (books on Met, Human Performance, Nav, T&G , Radio) all, these need to be covered to get a licence, Gyropedia is just one part of it,…it is nice but it does not train a student to be safe or better than those without it …that comes from a disciplined Instructor and school ethos….no books or you tube videos bring that to the party …so we will need to agree to disagree, besides a student is paying you to teach him ….do it , draw the diagrams on the white board let him see you do it, let him do it.
When he does it and writes it down he does not forget, taking a nice magnetic graphic our you flight bag does not offer the same cognitive experience
 

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I suspect, for all of the reasons you cite Vance, the adoption of the system under performs the UK. IMO that is no bad thing because actually if I look at accidents in the UK and USA I don't see the system as part of the solution but actually part of the problem because the box ticking is as distractional as it is a factor in creating pilots who can't think.

The creation of good documentation and keeping good, accurate records is not the same as ticking a box. I'd also argue that this isn't unique to gyroplane and has been done in helicopter and aeroplane instruction for over half a century, so its more than a little arrogant if anyone suggests that process is somehow poor just because we have an online relational database system...

We even had a desire to change the entire syllabus over here just so it would fit that system.

Learning and development is great and you'll find nobody arguing against that but to what collateral damage and to what un-intended consequences? The same authors have made 4 or 5 step processes that were good less than 10 years ago nearly 20 step processes today because....?

Not only that who owns the data? Who accesses the data, who controls the data? If I write instructor notes in a student file or complete a log book the only way to change that is to destroy the records or the student log book, such that to "hide" something I would have to recreate the entire log book. Not so difficult the online system and I know things have changed in that regard in the past.

Sure use an online system to record things, put training records, lessons, material in a digital format. The issue is not so much the format of the media as the content itself and the promotion of a system which rapidly becomes an unthinking box tick all under the pretence of authority from some greater organisation.
 
And how does Gyropedia do this better or more effectively than the old school way where in a class you sit with a student discuss the lesson discuss the sortie, document the lesson ( using a pen, on paper secured in the student file) you look him in the eye..you get up and do drawings on a white board, he gets up and explains what his learnt, you write down his short comings or his understanding for that previous lesson and agree …student signs and then you write down what is to be covered in the next lesson..you list the wind, the Hobbs, the runway, ….you list the flight duration, the exercises covered …so you don’t do it in an App….so you can’t access it from you arm chair via there app ….these app and features don’t IMO make it a better platform than old school

Now try Gyropedia with no wifi or cell coverage? …..or suddenly your phone batt is flat …or the server is down ! as I say I can and do use a whiz wheel it works just fine….I’m sure a E3 is better it just does not work for me.

Yes the training aids and magnetic stick on graphics make the instructors job easier and saves him time .…all I’m saying is as far as I can see and no one has been able to convince me otherwise…that using a solid ground school and paper trail is just as good as Gyropedia and the training if done accordingly will make a safe pilot

as seen here is the British Rotarycraft syllabus …this with the other ground school books the students will need anyway to gain a licence (books on Met, Human Performance, Nav, T&G , Radio) all, these need to be covered to get a licence, Gyropedia is just one part of it,…it is nice but it does not train a student to be safe or better than those without it …that comes from a disciplined Instructor and school ethos….no books or you tube videos bring that to the party …so we will need to agree to disagree, besides a student is paying you to teach him ….do it , draw the diagrams on the white board let him see you do it, let him do it.
When he does it and writes it down he does not forget, taking a nice magnetic graphic our you flight bag does not offer the same cognitive experience
I was answering Phil Bennett's post Greg.

I like what Phil Harwood has done; I do not use Gyropedia.

I will try it again if I find the right primary learner.

Most of my clients are addons and I was not successful using Gyropedia with addons.

I have high speed internet everywhere I teach.

I work with the FAA and I am not familiar with the British Rotorcraft Syllabus.

I tried looking up British Rotarycraft Syllabus before I realized it was likely a typo.
 
I suspect, for all of the reasons you cite Vance, the adoption of the system under performs the UK. IMO that is no bad thing because actually if I look at accidents in the UK and USA I don't see the system as part of the solution but actually part of the problem because the box ticking is as distractional as it is a factor in creating pilots who can't think.

The creation of good documentation and keeping good, accurate records is not the same as ticking a box. I'd also argue that this isn't unique to gyroplane and has been done in helicopter and aeroplane instruction for over half a century, so its more than a little arrogant if anyone suggests that process is somehow poor just because we have an online relational database system...

We even had a desire to change the entire syllabus over here just so it would fit that system.

Learning and development is great and you'll find nobody arguing against that but to what collateral damage and to what un-intended consequences? The same authors have made 4 or 5 step processes that were good less than 10 years ago nearly 20 step processes today because....?

Not only that who owns the data? Who accesses the data, who controls the data? If I write instructor notes in a student file or complete a log book the only way to change that is to destroy the records or the student log book, such that to "hide" something I would have to recreate the entire log book. Not so difficult the online system and I know things have changed in that regard in the past.

Sure use an online system to record things, put training records, lessons, material in a digital format. The issue is not so much the format of the media as the content itself and the promotion of a system which rapidly becomes an unthinking box tick all under the pretence of authority from some greater organisation.
You appear to be responding to me Phil and I have no idea how any of it relates to anything I posted.

Good day.
 
Not really aimed at you Vance beyond the specific reference re adoption and your later post gives your own colour on that and somewhat validates my view even if it’s for yet another reason - likely for existing pilots it jars them as it does me?

You don’t need to get how my post relates to yours but my thoughts on the subject are clear, unambiguous, numerous and explained. You can defend them if you like as can others but I think the points are undeniable.
 
To be clear Bobby I feel you are doing a good job of learning to fly and I understand why you are not using a check list.

A simple check list based on the things I have forgotten on a knee board would help me and might look something like this.

Seat belt fastened
Helmet secure
Altimeter set
118.125 AWOS
Temperatures and pressures in the green?
Magneto check with the acceptable range of drop
122.7 CTAF
Transponder to mode C
squawk 1200
Landing lights on
Minimum takeoff engine rpm
Kerrville area traffic, Experimental gyroplane _____
lining up runway 12/30 or 3/21 for a departure to the ______Kerrville
Vance:
Thanks for your comment.

My routine:

I put my helmet on before I enter my Genesis.
Put my seat belt/shoulder harness on.
Start engine and check engine readings.
Turn on Radio and lights
Tune AWOS, get report, set altimeter
Dial CTAF and radio test with FBO
"Kerrville traffic, experimental gyro 46 lima whiskey departing Guadalupe Aviation, taxi to runway X Kerrville"
Before entering runway mag check.

"Kerrville traffic experimental Gyro, runway X, prerotating, takeoff staying in pattern, Kerrville"

Set wheel brakes, lightly engage prerotator......

Etc.

I have CTAF and AWOS Programmed in the radio.

I've done this sequence so many times now, even when practicing Balancing. Should I use a checklist? Maybe but have not seen anyone else use one!

Now I'm struggling with how to approach a short field takeoff! Avoiding getting behind the power curve on takeoffs..... But that seems to be key.
 
There are two ways to use a checklist. One is to treat it as a to-do list, taking care of each item as you encounter it in sequence. The other is to perform a small group of steps at a time and then to check the list to confirm you didn't miss anything.

I insist that my students use written checklists starting with the preflight inspection. For tasks which are awkward to do step by step from the list because they must be done rapidly in sequence at a busy time, they read the particular sequence aloud immediately before starting it.

I insist that my students read the list ALOUD, not just so that I as the instructor listening in can be sure it was properly done on our dual flights, but even when flying solo. I consider that a good habit because I believe it has more impact that way, and discourages rushing through without considering each element. When I'm alone in an aircraft I still do it out loud.
 
There are two ways to use a checklist. One is to treat it as a to-do list, taking care of each item as you encounter it in sequence. The other is to perform a small group of steps at a time and then to check the list to confirm you didn't miss anything.

I insist that my students use written checklists starting with the preflight inspection. For tasks which are awkward to do step by step from the list because they must be done rapidly in sequence at a busy time, they read the particular sequence aloud immediately before starting it.

I insist that my students read the list ALOUD, not just so that I as the instructor listening in can be sure it was properly done on our dual flights, but even when flying solo. I consider that a good habit because I believe it has more impact that way, and discourages rushing through without considering each element. When I'm alone in an aircraft I still do it out loud.
Vance and I had a conversation on this subject the other day.

I gave approximately 4000 practical tests over my 30 years as a DPE. Failure to use checklists resulted in a significant number of failures to meet the standard.

One of the most common failures was during the pre-flight inspection. Failure to use the pre-flight checklist was pretty much an unrecoverable, and unforced, failure. The reason is very simple. The applicant is under no time pressure, no imminent hazard, no operational stress, etc. The consequences of missing fuel contamination or fuel shortage, a missing Fastner, low oil, damaged flight controls, etc. can be as catastrophic as they are un-necessary.

Failure to accomplish any of the non-time sensitive checklists was an error I was unable to overlook. Examples include Taxi checklist, run-up checklist, before takeoff checklist, climb checklist, cruise checklist, descent checklist, before landing checklist, after landing checklist, shutdown checklist, etc.

Most of the emergency checklists have "Bold face" items demanding immediate action and subsequent items to ensure something was not forgotten.

An emergency at 10,000 agl is dealt with differently than a similar emergency at 100 feet agl. I have had applicants fail to meet the standard by not completing an emergency checklist when they had adequate time to do so, and I have had applicants fail to meet the standard by attempting to complete an emergency checklist while failing to fly the aircraft because of the inappropriate or ill-timed attempt.

The standard taught to, and reinforced, by the instructor(s) is as important as the testing to the standard conducted by the examiner.

Jim
 
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Vance:
Thanks for your comment.

My routine:

I put my helmet on before I enter my Genesis.
Put my seat belt/shoulder harness on.
Start engine and check engine readings.
Turn on Radio and lights
Tune AWOS, get report, set altimeter
Dial CTAF and radio test with FBO
"Kerrville traffic, experimental gyro 46 lima whiskey departing Guadalupe Aviation, taxi to runway X Kerrville"
Before entering runway mag check.

"Kerrville traffic experimental Gyro, runway X, prerotating, takeoff staying in pattern, Kerrville"

Set wheel brakes, lightly engage prerotator......

Etc.

I have CTAF and AWOS Programmed in the radio.

I've done this sequence so many times now, even when practicing Balancing. Should I use a checklist? Maybe but have not seen anyone else use one!

Now I'm struggling with how to approach a short field takeoff! Avoiding getting behind the power curve on takeoffs..... But that seems to be key.
As I wrote earlier Bobby; I feel you are doing a good job and are meticulous in your process.

All of the things on the check list I wrote for you are things I have forgotten.

Perhaps you won’t forget as you expand your aviation world; many pilots have.

What often happens to me is I have done a thing so many times I imagine I have done it after some disruption of the flow of tasks if I don’t have a check list to return to.

Disruptions can be as simple as someone stopping to say hello or an unusual sound from the aircraft.

Being on the wrong frequency at a non-towered airport may kill me and yet I have because I did not properly use my pre-landing check list.

You don’t have the distractions of passengers, I have found passengers can be very distracting.

I use the check lists from the first flight with a learner because it lays a foundation for the expansion of their aviation world and introduces them to a culture of risk management.

Many members in my Experimental Aircraft Association chapters make fun of my use of check lists and my long preflight inspections and use it as proof that rotorcraft are too complicated or that I am brain damaged.

The members I learn the most from like airline transport pilots or other flight instructors are supportive of my use of check lists.

The push back from some on the Rotary Wing Forum is typical; basically they are saying I don’t need to use check lists because I have so much experience and besides no one else does.

If I am giving rides at an event I escalate my use of check lists because there are even more distractions than usual and the person I am giving a ride to deserves my best.

Some feel the formal use of check lists was started in 1935 when a Boeing model 299 crashed on takeoff killing everyone on board because they forgot to remove the gust lock.

July 24, 2021 a famous fighter pilot and air show performer lost his life and the NTSB report said in part; Snodgrass “failed to remove the flight control lock before departure, which resulted in a loss of airplane control and impact with terrain. Contributing to the accident was his failure to perform an adequate preflight inspection and flight control check before takeoff,” the report said.

Considered one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time, Snodgrass’s military career began in the early 1970s and ran for 26 years. He accumulated more than 4,800 hours in the F-14 in both war and peace, more than any other pilot.

Airlines use check lists because they found that many accidents happened because pilots forgot things.

I feel responsible for anyone I take flying so I do everything practical to keep from killing them.

A careful preflight inspection and check lists are two of the tools I use.

I also want to live to fly again.
 
Bobby,
If what you’re doing is working keep doing it. What I found for myself was developing a routine and sticking to it so step by step every time like you describe. One of the most dangerous things is people who try to distract you and take you out of that routine.

I have had people come up while I was doing my preflight and start asking questions. I would politely answer them and try to remember where I left off. I was at Bensen Days one year and doing my preflight and this happened to me like three times in a row. My Pops was there concerned I was doing the preflight to the best of my ability and critiquing anything I didn’t. The third person walked up and interrupted me my Dad flipped out and got quite belligerent with them. He said excuse me did you notice that he is inspecting his machine and not talking to anyone before you so rudely interrupted him? They said they were sorry and would talk to me later. Dad then said loudly for everyone around please leave the pilots alone while they do their preflight inspections. You interrupting them for conversation could cost them their lives. The next morning we announced it at the briefing again. I will try to remember it in my briefings this year as well.

Are you going to come to Bensen Days with your Gyro Bobby? We would love to have you.
 
Vance:

I'm working on a 3 part checklist, preflight, pretaxi/takeoff, landing. Trying to fit to something I can manage. I'll post here tomorrow and will be looking for comments from all.
 
If I have a passenger flying with me, I get him or her to read out my DI checklist, line by line, until everything is checked. This helps the passenger appreciate how important the main daily inspection is before mounting up and helps me concentrate on the inspection part.
 
Bobby,
If what you’re doing is working keep doing it. What I found for myself was developing a routine and sticking to it so step by step every time like you describe. One of the most dangerous things is people who try to distract you and take you out of that routine.

I have had people come up while I was doing my preflight and start asking questions. I would politely answer them and try to remember where I left off. I was at Bensen Days one year and doing my preflight and this happened to me like three times in a row. My Pops was there concerned I was doing the preflight to the best of my ability and critiquing anything I didn’t. The third person walked up and interrupted me my Dad flipped out and got quite belligerent with them. He said excuse me did you notice that he is inspecting his machine and not talking to anyone before you so rudely interrupted him? They said they were sorry and would talk to me later. Dad then said loudly for everyone around please leave the pilots alone while they do their preflight inspections. You interrupting them for conversation could cost them their lives. The next morning we announced it at the briefing again. I will try to remember it in my briefings this year as well.

Are you going to come to Bensen Days with your Gyro Bobby? We would love to have you.
I don't have any distractions so, thinking ahead to potential of having to do the PTS looking at a checklist, one I already follow but can show the examiner.

I've already decided I'm not going to to deal with short or soft field takeoffs, just to much risk for an incident. I've already had to deal with blade strike so overly sensitive to that.

Really funny but I lived in Punta Gorda FL summers but was not into Gyros then. I plan at some point to do Bensen Days but don't plan on taking my machine cross country for it. I do some trailering but not that far!

Bobby
 
Trailering is hard on gyro's - even with a pretty good rig like mine.
SO - 2nd year -planning to attend Bensen Days without my gyro! I had so much fun last year with the pure social aspect & no responsibility to worry about flying people & care for the gyro - I'm coming again - sans gyro! ( for a mad minute - after my fun XC adventure to Anahuac & back last October ... I plotted a flight plan to fly to Wauchula) ... but my mobility issues remind me how hard it could be if things don't work out perfectly ... 6 years since my great 2017 flying trips - but my body has aged a lot since then! :cry:
 
I know the Eurotubs of today are more comfortable doing long cross countries. The last in the world I would want to do in my Dominator was fly long distances. I used to equate my gut to a wave runner. I could ride it from Tampa to Houston if I had enough fuel but why I would I want to. It’s not made for that.
 
The checklist I use (Phil Harwood's)

I have it as the wallpaper on my tablet, so it's always there.
 

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Looks good and functional TyroGyro.

Do you use it every time you fly?

Is your tablet out when you fly?
 
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Looks good and functional TyroGyro.

Do you use it every time you fly?

Is you tablet out when you fly?
Every time without fail, Vance. It's as much a part of my flying as my suit, gloves and helmet...

The tablet is strapped to my leg (thigh).

I have another fixed one for Skydemon.

Both tablets have backups of all apps and aids, down to light signals and speechless code. :LOL:
 
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