Fatal - Cavalon N477AG - Oregon - 28-5-20

I do advocate going to full power but not at 200rrpm. I do disagree with some of Harwood’s stuff although given the changing landscape there I might agree soon! After all it was only recently that he introduced ref to the rotor tacho..

Yet what he does or doesn’t do is of no concern of mine.

As an experienced pilot we have the greater ability to change our piloting to fit a senario- the student doesn’t.

It may turn out the pilot of 477AG was in that camp too.
 
I guess "a section of influence... that is willfully blinkered to some quick wins" means, "some people here don't want to hear about easy fixes"?

But what does this mean?: "extrapolate that and you can focus and train oitbthe error"
Can you imagine a petrified student, looking into (and nowhere else) an instructor's mouth, trying to understand what he said? Meanwhile, their gyro already left British airspace.
P.S. Many Forum members with the highest degrees are continuing to work on this puzzle.
 
(replying to nr40)
That is because you know what you are doing, and why you are doing it, Vance.
Training by numbers doesn't give that subtlety of judgement, unfortunately.
I believe prorotators that require to be kept level while prerotating are a central part of the problem on takeoffs,
but I'm farting against thunder. The screwups will continue.
 
(replying to nr40)
That is because you know what you are doing, and why you are doing it, Vance.
Training by numbers doesn't give that subtlety of judgement, unfortunately.
I believe prorotators that require to be kept level while prerotating are a central part of the problem on takeoffs,
but I'm farting against thunder. The screwups will continue.
Thank you for your thoughtful input Fergus.

I have learned a lot from you.

I make an effort to teach aviation decision making from the start and avoid words like always or never.

I may teach the procedure initially only to return to it on a more theoretical level.
 
One might be able to appreciate that and take a pragmatic view. But consider this.

One day Bloggs attempts a take off and crashes with serious consequences and during the investigation it’s established that full power wasn’t used. When asked the pilot says it’s because often during the training process it wasn’t used or emphased either.

The NTSB look at the POH and find that the performance data references full power.

How do you think the trainer stands legally?
 
The NTSB investigates and nothing they find out can be used in a law suit.

The FAA would be the one to contact me and suggest a weakness in my training syllabus when they feel there is one.

During the oral part of the practical test and/or during the knowledge test the applicant may be expected to be able to read and apply a performance chart.

It may be a generic performance chart depending on the POH for the specific model of gyroplane flown for the test.

The FAA might look to see if understanding performance charts are in his ground school records and or the applicant was corrected by his flight instructor if he missed it on his knowledge test.

This is something relatively new. My early log books are full of illegible entries from flight instructors.

If I am doing a proficiency check ride; takeoff procedure is something I am looking for and probably have him do a short field takeoff that includes reading and interpreting a performance chart and requires full power as soon as appreciable lift is felt and climbing out at Vx plus or minus five knots.
A demonstration of short field takeoff is not required in the Practical Test Standards but explaining them is.

In this country a flight instructor can be sued for anything regardless of the validity of the claims.

It would be just a likely to be sued for teaching a client to open the throttle on takeoff if he has an engine failure on takeoff arguing that the rapid opening of the throttle caused the engine failure.
 
Last edited:
Obviously false claims are not very nice and not to be encouraged but I have to say in a case where a new pilot might find himself unable to fly the aircraft in a manner that would allow him to achieve the numbers published in a POH... that’s a different matter not only for the instructor but for the examiner.

I might add comments are completely unrelated to this accident.

As an aside I see a Calidus crashed yesterday in France. Happily not a fatal one.
 
SOooo what your sayin is, prerotate with stick all the way back to 200+ RPM and let go of the brakes and give it the gusto to full throttle....?
 
No. I didn't say that Ben - see post 41.

You can watch me flying an AutoGyro aircraft on YouTube and talk through how I fly a standard take off with a wheel balance or a more performance baised one. Probably saves confusion or suggestions that it will all end in disaster, because it doesn't on film, nor in the 1000s of take offs since.

Like I said regardless of how you want to advocate taking off, wheel balance, pre-rotate to X, Y or Z at some point we could do them all. BUT at some point you should get to full throttle and I'm actually surprised its a talking point tbh.

If I was instructing someone then the student, prior to going solo, will be able to go to 100% throttle within 4-5 seconds of brake release, what muscle memory are you training otherwise? Then new pilot goes flying with his pal and lands somewhere more challenging and what skill set has he got?

I see you fly a Sportcopter Vortex and 200+ hours. I don't know what the flight manual gives for take off distance required is but I assume that number references full throttle and I would see no reason why it might seem unusual to suggest any pilot flying one should be able to achieve those numbers.

Just my view.
 
Sorry Phil, Yes I fly a Sportcopter, I have more than 200 hours and I was trying to sort of tougue in cheek condense down all the different methods that were bouncing back and forth.
I have flown a few of the dreadnought class gyros and they seem to best when you get the blades up to speed flat and level, disengage the pre rotator and as you gently let off the brakes and start to move forward you gently bring the stick back as you increase throttle.
But thats been my experience.
 
In my Cavalon....I pre-rotate to 200 rrpm.......then release brakes...slowly move stick back while adding throttle....balance on mains....then full throttle.....she flies off when she’s ready.....no problems....not behind the power curve....nice easy climb.
 

Attachments

  • 632E1339-9C03-4D17-B31D-962F51479AFF.gif
    632E1339-9C03-4D17-B31D-962F51479AFF.gif
    58.5 KB · Views: 9
Some older folks shouldn’t fly gyros. There I said it.
I’ve never heard of anyone less than 50 years old crashing a gyro, other than folks that repeatedly crossed the line of legality and safety.
Some CFIs sign off students way too soon. Some CFIs have had a LOT of students crash. I find it unacceptable. Nothing I haven’t said before.
 
I don't think I know too many people under 50 that have ever even flown a gyro, never mind crashed one! 🙄
 
I don't think I know too many people under 50 that have ever even flown a gyro, never mind crashed one! 🙄
Good point! Actually I’ve trained quite a few.
 
The preliminary NTSB reports don't show an age for many recent accidents, but these examples are easily located in the first two pages of a search:
Aston Kinsey Tercel gyrocopter, N640BE , age 42, June 2018
AutoGyro Cavalon gyroplane, N198LT , age 45, October 2018
PAVEL VAGNER TANGO2, N857UV , age 37, April 2019
AutoGyro GmbH MTO Sport , N498AG , age 41, October 2019

(I am making no judgments on piloting skill, merely reporting ages under 50 that popped up in the records.)

I think a more accurate statement would be that some PEOPLE have no business flying a gyroplane. Given the graying owner population in the U.S., you should expect many accidents to involve those over 50.
 
I probably have a unique situation, as I have many existing younger customers that do really well. I have been instructing for 20 years, gyro instructor for six, and have had one student have an accident (roll on take off). That was very discouraging, and it took the fun out of gyros for me. I’ve never had a fixed wing student have an accident, in over 7000 hours of training. There is a marked decline in older gyro students. I honestly think they are easy to fly, but completely unforgiving.
Prob half my students are under 50.
 
I knew of a guy that was under 50 that balled up a single place.
Smartest,funniest and coolest dude I ever met.
He did say it was all his fault and he made some really bad ADM choices that day.
I'm not sure he ever considered whether age was a factor, but he DAMN sure won't make those choices now that hes over 50!
 
Older folks may predominate due to having accumulated the money to buy and fly. Younger folks are probably drinking beer, chasing women, raising families, paying mortgages, and haven't reached their mid-life crisis yet. This is as it should be.

Gyros on takeoff and landing require a depth of knowledge on a par with tail-dragger pilots, and helicopter pilots. You need to understand how the damn thing works. It isn't rocket science.
 
Those two types certainly do require perhaps an extra layer of knowledge, and are less forgiving.

As a complete aside, it was interesting to me when instructing sea-plane that with the single hull Lake Buccaneers, as it got up onto the step the point of balance on the water then rendered it quite similar to a tail wheel situation, where if one did not keep it straight with careful attention to rudder inputs, any excessive divergence with failure to correct would result in the tail trying to over take your nose and resulting in water looping.

Another ‘gotcha’ was the pusher configuration and position of the engine. With a reduction in power the nose will pitch up, rather than the more conventional set up where when you pull the throttle to idle the nose drops or pitches down. For a student who is converting and is used to that, when he/she comes in for landing and eases the throttle off, they instinctively also eases back on the stick...!!! This despite being extensively briefed that when they takes off throttle the nose will pitch up.

This results in the flare becoming ‘interesting’ as the student flares, pulls back the throttle...and are pulling back on the stick!!! The exaggerated resulting flare, if not anticipated by the instructor, can result in running out of airspeed and ideas, much higher than anticipated, with unpleasant results.

These only serving to show how, quite small but significant differences, can have fatal results if not pointed out and trained for, and also how long term ‘incorrect’ muscle memory can kick in in high stress situations, in a ‘different’ aircraft, with bad results.
 
Last edited:
Top