Fatal - BRAKO Gyro, Argao, Cebu, Philippines 05 NOV 2020

Tyger

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The question is, do gyros inherently allow for more pilot error accidents? I'm inclined to think that the 'rotating wing' spinning above a gyro pilot may make the aircraft inherently more prone to poor ADM, because it's not a wing that the pilot can mostly forget about while he flies like in most aircraft, it requires almost constant attention particularly on takeoff, in addition to thinking about the powerplant going quiet on you, which is mostly all that FW pilots have to think about as long as they keep the aircraft above stall speed.
You make some good points. However, except for low G situations, once at flight rrpms (i.e. after takeoff), a gyro rotor pretty much does look after itself.
I take a glance at my rotor tach every so often once I'm in the air, but it's more out of curiousity than anything else. It spins faster on hot days, and when I'm pulling some extra G (e.g. hard banks). But I really don't control it, in any meaningful sense, so I cannot worry too much about it.
But what I really don't ever have to worry about is my stall speed...
 

Abid

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Are there any resources comparing gyro accident rate vs fixed wing? It's easy when following a gyro accident forum topic to lose perspective of how gyros compare to other aircraft in terms of safety. Do gyro pilots make more poor ADM decisions than FW? If so are these poor ADM decisions more particular to characteristics of gyros like flying low etc, etc. Looking at things this way may also be more instructive in trying to prevent accidents. In seaplane accidents the poor ADM of leaving wheels down for water landings is specific to seaplanes, for example.
Are there more characteristics of gyros that make them more prone to poor ADM to decisions and thus more dangerous? I think it's easy to say it's not gyros that are at fault, but the pilots - but this probably applies to any aircraft. The question is, do gyros inherently allow for more pilot error accidents? I'm inclined to think that the 'rotating wing' spinning above a gyro pilot may make the aircraft inherently more prone to poor ADM, because it's not a wing that the pilot can mostly forget about while he flies like in most aircraft, it requires almost constant attention particularly on takeoff, in addition to thinking about the powerplant going quiet on you, which is mostly all that FW pilots have to think about as long as they keep the aircraft above stall speed.

I believe LAMA had done a compilation of accident data for FAA back in 2016 or 2017 from around the world where they could collect data. It did not come out to be that bad. It was more than fixed wing but less than trikes. Many accidents were running into wires and top of trees. Some were rotor unloading fatal accidents but very few. None of that data collection did anything to convince FAA rotorcraft directorate guys to change. They agreed, shook their heads and went back to the same position they had. Definition of insanity. I was right there at Oshkosh when this meeting happened.

However, there has been an uptick in unloaded rotor fatal recently with new or inexperienced pilots buying up 915 powered gyroplanes. This should be taken into consideration when recommending a gyroplane to a new gyroplane pilot. The airplane pilots have the worst habits in this respect. They level out from a climb first and then reduce power.
 

TyroGyro

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Are there any resources comparing gyro accident rate vs fixed wing? It's easy when following a gyro accident forum topic to lose perspective of how gyros compare to other aircraft in terms of safety. Do gyro pilots make more poor ADM decisions than FW? If so are these poor ADM decisions more particular to characteristics of gyros like flying low etc, etc. Looking at things this way may also be more instructive in trying to prevent accidents. In seaplane accidents the poor ADM of leaving wheels down for water landings is specific to seaplanes, for example.
Are there more characteristics of gyros that make them more prone to poor ADM to decisions and thus more dangerous? I think it's easy to say it's not gyros that are at fault, but the pilots - but this probably applies to any aircraft. The question is, do gyros inherently allow for more pilot error accidents? I'm inclined to think that the 'rotating wing' spinning above a gyro pilot may make the aircraft inherently more prone to poor ADM, because it's not a wing that the pilot can mostly forget about while he flies like in most aircraft, it requires almost constant attention particularly on takeoff, in addition to thinking about the powerplant going quiet on you, which is mostly all that FW pilots have to think about as long as they keep the aircraft above stall speed.
Not directly. I may be the first one to attempt it.

A good starting point is the latest NTSB stats for GA. Should be a kind of gold-standard reference for the rest of world. [the data spreadsheet link]
I suggest that "Personal Flying" and "Training" are the most relevant subsets of GA for gyros to be measured against.

Problem is the analysis is rather "dry". Phase of Flight and Defining Event.

It does little to analyse the accident chain, or investigate hours, recency, ADM, etc.
 

axelg

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TyroGyro
My post wasn't really about my GWS system although obviously my interest in accidents is mainly driven by my work on it. I will try to answer your points in the GWS thread later to try to avoid too much thread drift.

My proposal that somebody (perhaps me) develops a database with input from others is really to try to put some statistical data together, that everyone can see, to allow us to decide if a personal analysis such as yours is correct or not and to perhaps tease out some dominant causes.

My gut feeling is that your analysis may well be fairly correct but it remains personal and therefore up for discussion. Unfortunately based on the way discussions go on this, and other, forums your opinion and my gut feelings have no value. A database that was fed by as many actors as possible should have more credibility.

I see you're from Liverpool, as am I, next time I visit family there I'll try to set up a meeting. Where is your gyro based?

Mike G
I would love to see this kind of database. I believe that over time it could grow into something very usefull.

Can i recommend using a shared service like google sheets? It is free, and allows multiple trusted moderators on the same document, while allowing everybody else access to read it.
 

TyroGyro

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I would love to see this kind of database. I believe that over time it could grow into something very usefull.

Can i recommend using a shared service like google sheets? It is free, and allows multiple trusted moderators on the same document, while allowing everybody else access to read it.
I have been compiling this data for five years, and ensure that the info is posted here, with links to the ASN Accident Wikibase, which seems to be the best source, and is updated regularly by users around the world. I personally only post fatals here in machines that can be termed "modern generation" machines.


So, more or less, this RWF "Accident Discussions" sub-thread IS the database, at least for fatals.

I encourage RWF users to check back with the wikibase from time to time, for updates, final reports, etc, as they appear and post them on the relevant thread.

Each thread title contains date, place, type, registration etc, (where known,) and starts with "Fatal - "

If adding a new Fatal accident (before I get there...) please use and modify as appropriate the following thread title template:- e.g.

"Fatal - " [TYPE] [REG], [LOCALITY], [STATE or REGION], [COUNTRY] [DATE]

Fatal - Magni M24 Plus N590DM, Cape Girardeau Regional Airport, Missouri, USA 22 MAY 2022​


For non-fatals, try and use the same template, prefaced instead with "Accident - " or "Incident - "
 
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Resasi

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I'm inclined to think that the 'rotating wing' spinning above a gyro pilot may make the aircraft inherently more prone to poor ADM, because it's not a wing that the pilot can mostly forget about while he flies like in most aircraft, it requires almost constant attention particularly on takeoff, in addition to thinking about the powerplant going quiet on you, which is mostly all that FW pilots have to think about as long as they keep the aircraft above stall speed.
As a long time fixed wing pilot I feel this is a particularly relevant observation.
 
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