False Marketing

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
There is an ad on Barnstormers for Primary Category certified Calidus as follows:

"FAA CERTIFIED AUTOGYRO CALIDUS • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 2016 FAA CERTIFIED! This is NOT an Experimental. Ready to fly out of the factroy. These aircraft can used for business and rented, legally. You can use this aircraft to survey pipelines, power lines, properties, ranches, farming, security and much more and at a third cost of helicopters or fixed wing aircraft. All Mandatory FAA required insturmentations included. $100,640.00 (euro). Get your quotes and then call us. AUTOGYRO HONDO TEXAS"

Everyone should note that you CANNOT use a Primary Category aircraft for anything except private flights and training. You cannot do commercial operations under that category. Those are reserved in rotary wing for Part 27 certification.

Update:
I am sending in a clarification request to FAA Washington DC
I will hold this post and see what they say
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,326
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
I think there is a need for some precision in language when talking about such things.

A primary aircraft is subject to 91.325(a), which says:
No person may operate a primary category aircraft carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

An EAB is subject to 91.319(e), which says:
No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire.

These are different in wording, and in legal effect.
The restriction on EAB aircraft is much tighter. The original Primary aircraft NPRM included the same language, but it was changed before the regulations became final, and that change broadens the possible uses.


To see the difference, consider that a solo flight to examine pipelines, as a commercial service, can be an operation "for compensation or hire", but it is not "carrying persons or property for hire", because there are no passengers or cargo on board (no transportation of persons or things). Thus, the EAB language prohibits it but the Primary language does not.
 
Last edited:

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
That is interesting but have you actually gotten a clarification on it from Washington from FAA lawyers on this. Is this clarified in an AC that you know about?
There have been only 2 primary category aircraft in the past. GT-500 from QuickSilver and one from Rans. My understanding is based on talking to the QuickSilver guys who had done the primary category but later they lost the PC because they moved though they technically held on to the TC. AutotGyro does not have the PC yet, just the TC but PC is expected sometime in the future.
I would be surprised that FAA changed their interpretation from QuickSilver to now. It has been a long time but things like that do not change usually without an AC release etc.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
I am sending in a clarification request to FAA Washington DC
I will delete this post and see what they say
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,326
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
AC 21-37 sets out some of the history in the Background section.
It describes the original NPRM from March 1989, saying:
The notice proposed to allow the use of primary category aircraft for pilot training and to prohibit the use of all primary category aircraft for compensation or hire.

It next mentions a string of supplemental notices and amendments, and then says about the final rule (December 1992):
Although a primary category aircraft may be available for rental and flight instruction under certain conditions, the carrying of persons or property for hire is prohibited.

That last piece reflects the different language that actually made it into the FARs, amended during the notice/comment process. Since the original proposal used the same restriction as for EABs and the final rule does not, a court would typically read that as a meaningful intentional change and not a slip of the pen.

Because the language was explicitly changed and broadened during the public comment period, it's hard to argue that there's no effect.
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,326
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
I am sending in a clarification request to FAA Washington DC
I will delete this post and see what they say
Leave it up for now, and we can see what the FAA says. This is a good topic for discussion, and I think it should stay where we can all see it and talk about it.

By the way, I don't know what the FAA is likely to say, but I would predict a competent attorney could get the courts to agree with me even if the in-house lawyers at the FAA take a different view.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
True. May be what the people I was referring to who held the certificate were pointing to was with a second observer/person and did not consider single pilot operation. Its possible. Let see what they will state at FAA. I think its actually safer if you are doing an observation mission to have an observer who observes and a pilot who just concentrates on actual flying but wordsmithing by FAA does not always create logical safety situations.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,326
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
Here's an additional thought, which shows that the FAA considers operation for compensation versus carrying persons or property for hire as different things. Take a look at this bit from part 61, private pilot privileges, and it's clear that there is a distinction. In the first part, they state both restrictions (and wouldn't need to if they meant the same thing). In the second part, they say you can do one in connection with your job so long as you are not doing the other.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.


I would hope that the FAA is consistent in applying the same definitions for EAB and Primary aircraft. This opens up the market for Primary gyros and I see that as a good thing.
 
Last edited:

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
The funny thing is the use of both persons and "property". What safety is lost if one is carrying property like a LIDAR sensing equipment for hire. Persons may be one thing that someone can say FAA is not wanting a second person put in jeopardy for this lower category certification but property, who cares about inanimate objects.
 
Last edited:

DennisFetters

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
3,182
Location
Changsha, China
Aircraft
582 Commander Elite
Total Flight Time
Stopped counting years ago after 5,000
The funny thing is the use of both persons and "property". What safety is lost if one is carrying property like a LIDAR sensing equipment for hire. Persons may be one thing that someone can say FAA is not wanting a second person put in jeopardy for this lower category certification but property, who cares about inanimate objects.
In my opinion, if the LIDAR is attached and operating on the aircraft, it is equipment. If it is in the back with an address label on it for delivery, it is property, and then you are competing with the US post office, FedEx and UPS, and they won't stand for that!
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
In my opinion, if the LIDAR is attached and operating on the aircraft, it is equipment. If it is in the back with an address label on it for delivery, it is property, and then you are competing with the US post office, FedEx and UPS, and they won't stand for that!
I don't know about that if what you say is turns out to be true. I'll start working on putting in primary category application tomorrow and work on getting some investors soon.
Otherwise EASA does not accept gyroplanes in primary category because European national clubs lobbied them not to do a European wide CS-LSA like standard for gyroplanes, Canada does not recognize primary category through BASA with the US so its usefulness is limited.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,326
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
I agree that there is a distinction between installed equipment and cargo being transported. If you are carrying a LIDAR set in your "hold" or baggage compartment, or strapped into an empty seat to take it somewhere, it's cargo; if its installation is recorded in the aircraft maintenance logs, it's not.
 

JAL

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Perth
Aircraft
MT03sport/C172
Total Flight Time
250
Also, the term property in this context generally refers to an item owned by someone else. Notwithstanding the above comments about it being equipment, the Lidar would be owned by the pilot and therefore not considered "property" but instead a personal item.

Here in Australia, the regs are almost identical to the FAA and Airborne have a trike that has Primary Category certification and people use it for aerial photography, hang glider towing, training, and aerial survey. Lidar surveying in the trike would probably be allowed within certain conditions of the AOC (Air Operators Certificate) like restrictions over populated areas etc. If the Calidus has the PC then it can be used here in Australia for the same things with the conditions set by the AoC.

In Australia, you would need to be a commercial pilot because any commercial activity requires an AoC which as part of the requirements needs a chief pilot, the requirements of Chief Pilot is that they need to have a commercial license and the appropriate hours and experience for the type of operations proposed.
 
Last edited:

EdResnick

Newbie
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
93
Location
San Diego, CA
I think you guys don't understand what it means to carry property "for hire"; it means freight. You can't use a PC aircraft to transport passengers or freight for money, but you can use it for any other commercial use, including ones that involve carrying equipment like cameras, crop-dusting stuff, etc. When doing aerial photography or crop-dusting, you are not being paid to carry that equipment; you're being paid to use it. That's very different. If you crash, it's your loss. If you crash while carrying passengers or freight, it's somebody else's loss.
 

chrisk

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
260
Location
Round Rock TX
Aircraft
Magni M24, Turbo Mooney 231
Total Flight Time
500
Another important word is "operation". It's one thing for a company to use its own aircraft to inspect its own pipeline. It's an entirely different thing to offer that service to others. The idea that you can just buy a PC aircraft and start offering services is a tad misleading. Think about why there is no "Uber" for airplanes. --Its not due to the lack of commercial pilots or type certificated aircraft.
 

EdResnick

Newbie
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
93
Location
San Diego, CA
But it is perfectly legal to use a PC aircraft for surveying someone else's pipelines. You are not being paid to carry the equipment; you're being paid to use it. You take off from point A and land at point A. It would only be against regulations to pick up the equipment at point A and drop it off at point B.
 

Cammie Patch

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
373
Location
Boise, Idaho
Aircraft
Calidus, Cirrus, Columbia, Archer, 172, Cirrus, Seneca, Arrow, Citation Mustang
Total Flight Time
7000+
Be careful making up regulations just because we think they should be there. For example, can a flight school add an experimental gyroplane to its fleet for rental? Most people say no, just because they think it's probably not allowed, but the FARs are fairly quiet on what can be rented. So yes, an experimental aircraft can be in a flight school, but the school can only charge for the check out if they have a LODA for it. If it happens to be a gyroplane, it can also be used for training towards certification under that LODA.

And yes, the Primary Category does not prohibit commercial use such as aerial survey.

If anyone says otherwise for these two examples, show me the regs.
 

chrisk

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
260
Location
Round Rock TX
Aircraft
Magni M24, Turbo Mooney 231
Total Flight Time
500
chrisk;n1129593 said:
Another important word is "operation". It's one thing for a company to use its own aircraft to inspect its own pipeline. It's an entirely different thing to offer that service to others. The idea that you can just buy a PC aircraft and start offering services is a tad misleading. Think about why there is no "Uber" for airplanes. --Its not due to the lack of commercial pilots or type certificated aircraft.
I probably could have said this much better. I would recommend checking with your local FSDO before embarking on any commercial operation involving aviation. This is independent of the type certification of the aircraft. There are lots of rules to review and it is easy to run afoul. For example, there is a whole section for crop dusting. The FAA makes s a distinction between sightseeing and a commercial air tour.
 
Top