Fairey Rotodyne

Fly Army

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It would be nice to see a modern re-make of this design. It would make for a great Downtown Rooftop to Rooftop shuttle from Boston to say Washington D.C. With appropriate stops in between. IF you could keep the TSA from getting involved you'd have a really strong selling point.
 

kolibri282

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Some nice pictures of the aircraft, especially the one in the middle of the page.
http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/349.jpg
http://www.retronaut.com/2012/03/fairey-rotodyne-1950s/

I would also tend to think that there is a market for an aircraft like this. Some projects at that time seem to have been killed by American companies trying to get rid of competition. They bribed European (and perhaps Canadian?) politicians. The British fighter development using rocket booster engines seems to have fallen victim to that campaign. In Germany Lockheed won the contract for the Starfighter which led to a political upheaval as the newspaper "Der Spiegel" accused Franz Josef Strauss (then secretary of defense) of corruption.

PS: Thanks for the "Thumbs up" Wasp!
 
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Jean Claude

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I would also tend to think that there is a market for an aircraft like this.
Nice picture, Juergen.
Perhaps the market was at that early period, for Rotodyne. But far too noisy today
 

kolibri282

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Glad you like the picture Jean Claude! As for noise perhaps today's 3D CFD methods would allow to build quieter tip jet engines? Well, pure speculation... but worth a try .... we should contact Elon Musk, he's the man for impossible missions..;-)
 

Atic

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Some nice pictures of the aircraft, especially the one in the middle of the page.
http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/349.jpg
http://www.retronaut.com/2012/03/fairey-rotodyne-1950s/

I would also tend to think that there is a market for an aircraft like this. Some projects at that time seem to have been killed by American companies trying to get rid of competition. They bribed European (and perhaps Canadian?) politicians. The British fighter development using rocket booster engines seems to have fallen victim to that campaign. In Germany Lockheed won the contract for the Starfighter which led to a political upheaval as the newspaper "Der Spiegel" accused Franz Josef Strauss (then secretary of defense) of corruption.

PS: Thanks for the "Thumbs up" Wasp!
Thanks Juergen,

was it not Lockheed who also "sponsored" prins Bernhard of The Netherlands to get a contract ?
The US did a lot to develop rotorcraft....and did a lot to prevent other countries from doing the same.....LOL !!
 

Atic

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Nice picture, Juergen.
Perhaps the market was at that early period, for Rotodyne. But far too noisy today
When "the noise" issue was brought up to sink the project, did the Rotodyne engineers not succesfully started to tackle that problem within a few months ?
I guess that when the Rotodyne had a chance to develop, the noise problem would have been "solved" to a great extend and that's what Rotodyne opponents "forced" to pull the plug before it ever got that far.

A very "stinky" episode of "behind the scenes" rotorcraft history.
 

Jean Claude

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The noise of jet engines at the blades tip is a real problem. Dilution flow is difficult because of the drag during autorotation
 

Rotor Rooter

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Thanks Juergen,


I would also tend to think that there is a market for an aircraft like this.
And this, in a subsequent larger model, may be the aircraft.
Eurocopter X3: Catch it if You Can - YouTube


Some projects at that time seem to have been killed by American companies trying to get rid of competition.
"..... cognizant of other factors gravitating against the "84." The first and most crucial was the “NBH” (not built here) factor; ......"

Not quite a rotorcraft, but it is VTOL.

THE CL-84 DYNAVERT




Dave
 

kolibri282

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prins Bernhard of The Netherlands to get a contract
I had never heard that before, Gilbert, was it related to some defense project?

The US did a lot to develop rotorcraft....and did a lot to prevent other countries from doing the same....
I find it almost impossible to understand why one of the nations that had been in the for for front of aircraft development for decades within a few years lost that industry almost entirely, something that did not happen to the French somehow. It would really be interesting to find out why that happened!

The first and most crucial was the “NBH” (not built here) factor;
The 84 reminds me of aircraft thought up when the US were looking for close air support aircraft in the 60ies (Light Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft (LARA)). The General Dynamics-Convair Charger was one entry and the OV-10 Bronco was the plane finally emerging from that in the end but the 84 might have been even better suited for the job. It seems that in the course of the LARA development a tilt-wing was at one point also considered, the Boeing Model 147 = Tilt-Wing Mohawk (see here: http://www.combatreform.org/killerbees2.htm) Very interesting plane, Dave!
 
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Fly Army

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I don't think the 84 continued to fly if it lost an engine. Making it a wee bit undesirable.
 

kolibri282

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I don't think the 84 continued to fly if it lost an engine
That's true for the VTOL case but unlike the Osprey you would have the option to land a battle damaged aircraft, flying on one engine, conventionally on a somewhat longer strip. The VTOL/STOL capability is only required to station your aircraft close to the combat zone and the infantry you want to support.
 

Fly Army

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That's true for the VTOL case but unlike the Osprey you would have the option to land a battle damaged aircraft, flying on one engine, conventionally on a somewhat longer strip. The VTOL/STOL capability is only required to station your aircraft close to the combat zone and the infantry you want to support.
I agree, my concern would be if you lost the engine while you were in a hover. The Osprey allegedly can handle this.
 

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There's cross-linkage so that one engine can drive both prop-rotors. But the Osprey can't autorotate, so if you lose them both, you're dead meat.
 

Rotor Rooter

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Originally Posted by kolibri282
I find it almost impossible to understand why one of the nations that had been in the forefront of aircraft development for decades within a few years lost that industry almost entirely …….. It would really be interesting to find out why that happened!
Just one opinion:
My business objectives were to satisfy; the owner(s) , the customers, the employees, and the suppliers; all four. Over the past few decades the Neocon ‘need for greed’ has marginalized the later three.

Perhaps a society reaps what it sows.

Thanks for the lead to the Boeing Model 147 = Tilt-Wing Mohawk. In fact that huge web page has some interesting stuff.

__________________________

Apparently, both the Osprey V22 and the Canadair CL-84 have X-shafts so that one engine can drive both rotors.
But the MV22B has a maximum disk loading of 27 lb/ft² whereas the CL-84 has a much higher disk loading of 41 lb/ft².


Dave
 

kolibri282

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the CL-84 has a much higher disk loading of 41 lb/ft²
Rereading Dave's post I just wondered whether perhaps the higher disk loading is an advantage in case of a single engine failure, the torque to be transmitted via the X-shaft is less, so the gear loads are less as well.
 
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Rotor Rooter

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Hi Juergen

Assuming that the second engine is still powering all the control functions, such as wing tilt, prop feathering, etc.; it is an interesting consideration.


Apparently, the only objection found in the following report was when the craft was descending at about 40 knots, with a descent rate of greater than 300 ft/min and without the Stability Augmentation System ON.

This is a link to the report "Summary of a Flight-Test Evaluation of the CL-84 Tilt-Wing V/STOL Aircraft"
It was not put in the Technical Forum because it does not relate closely to rotorcraft.



Dave
 

kolibri282

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What an interesting aircraft, Dave. Another concept that might warrant further exploration, like the title aircraft of this thread. Would it be possible, with given engine power, to lift about the same gross weight and useful load with a CL-84 type craft as does the Osprey? (Unfortunately we will perhaps not be able to answer that question ....;-)
 
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