Expensive Copies

bpearson

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Just returned from a flight show here in England. It was the first time I have seen the ELA and MT 03 in the flesh. Apart from the pod the similarity was amazing. A friend asked me what they were like and all I could say was that the ELA looked Spanish and the MT looks German. Just like the Magni looks Italian.
Brian
 

Mike G

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Brian
Look at the English translation of Hervé's article about Blois 2005.
http://www.autogire.com/
This gives you some detail about the differences between the ELA, the MT 03 and the Magni.
The MT 03 seems to be a copy of the ELA but with Jean Pierre Doleac (Aircopter) extruded aluminium blades and some weight reduction using carbon fibre.
The main difference between the ELA/MT03 and the Magni is that the Magni chassis is AISI 4130 alloy steel and the ELA/MT03 are in 304 or 316 (I could never find out which) stainless steel. The Magni supporters point out that if you compare the strengths of the two materials you get:

Material min yield strength Ultimate strength
ksi (MPa) ksi (MPa)
4130 w/o heat treat 83.7 (580) 118 (820)
4130 with heat treat 137 (950) 151 (1050)
316L 25 (170) 70 (485)

You don't need to be a metalurgist to see that if the tube used is the same size in the Magni as the others the Magni chassis will take a lot more punishment than the other two before it bends (min yield strength) or breaks (ultimate strength).

That being said I have used 316 stainless a lot when I worked in the food industry and I use it a lot now I'm in the Oil industry. It is a very forgiving material as you can see from the large gap between the moment it yields (bends plastically) and the moment it breaks.

Another thing to note is that it seems as though ELA have some very questionable commercial habits judging from the numerous changes in French distributor with a lot of pissed off people. I don't know if they've been unlucky with their choice of distributors or if the common denominator is their way of doing business. Perhaps Roger Savage could fill in some of the details, he's the ELA agent in UK.
Are you flying yet?

Mike G
 

Mike G

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Material comparison

Material comparison

The comparison of materials table didn't work out so I try it again. See attached doc file.
I hope it really is attached.

Mike G
 

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bpearson

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Hi Mike
I was just amazed at the airframe similarity. Even pre-rotators etc looked identical. I thought the MT 03 was finished off nicer and has a huge pod.
I don't know prices but suspect they will be a fair bit cheaper than a Magni. The strength comparison you give is scary but I suppose it must be strong enough. Time will tell. Suppose you pay your money and take your choice.
Only flown 3 hours. Engine great !
Brian.
 

Aussie_Paul

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Since 1982 Gyro 5000+ mostly instructing, and approx. 200 fixed wing in the late 1960s.
I have heard that stailess steel work hardens and then snaps with out any bending. Anyone know the real truth?

What is the pricing difference between the 4130 abd the SS?

Aussie Paul. :)
 

CypherNinja

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Aussie_Paul said:
I have heard that stailess steel work hardens and then snaps with out any bending. Anyone know the real truth?

What is the pricing difference between the 4130 abd the SS?

Aussie Paul. :)

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1178

Its my understanding that metals don't work harden until they are actually bent plasticly (yield strength exceeded). I could be wrong, though.
 

CypherNinja

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Aussie_Paul said:
I have heard that stailess steel work hardens and then snaps with out any bending. Anyone know the real truth?

What is the pricing difference between the 4130 abd the SS?

Aussie Paul. :)

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1178

Prices at this site:

6ft. 316 Stainless Seamless tube 1"x.065" $83.72

6ft 4130 CromeMoly Steel Tube 1"x.065" $20.44

10% off orders over $100 ;) :rolleyes:
 

Sapientino

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bpearson said:
Hi Mike
I was just amazed at the airframe similarity. Even pre-rotators etc looked identical. I thought the MT 03 was finished off nicer and has a huge pod.
I don't know prices but suspect they will be a fair bit cheaper than a Magni. The strength comparison you give is scary but I suppose it must be strong enough. Time will tell. Suppose you pay your money and take your choice.
Only flown 3 hours. Engine great !
Brian.

someone told me that MT03 was copied from ELA since he was Ela distibutor in German before building it.

In Italy Magni M16 100hp costs about 50000€
ELA 100hp costs about 37000€
 

steveb

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Mt-03

BCAR Section-T structural testing has been completed for the MT-03 - all very amusing stuff (including loading up the airframe with over 600kg and dropping it three times (nose up, level and nose down) from 33cm (12 inches). We've also got a nice picture of four people from the testing team standing on the horizontal stabiliser - we could have got six people on there without breaking it if there had been room!

The geometry of the MT-03 and the ELA airframes are similar, but that's as far as it goes. Stainless used on the MT-03 is 1.4301.

Regards

Steve Boxall
www.rotorsport.org
www.auto-gyro.com
 

greeny

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Mt03

Mt03

Mike G said:
The main difference between the ELA/MT03 and the Magni is that the Magni chassis is AISI 4130 alloy steel and the ELA/MT03 are in 304 or 316 (I could never find out which) stainless steel ...
According to the page (http://www.eaglesworld.de/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=302), they use 1.4301 steel for the frame of the MT03 (quote):
"Tragschrauber MT03 Modell 2005
Rahmen und Anbauteile 1.4301 elektropoliert"

The main difference between the MT03 and the ELA is: the MT03 underwent and passed an approval process as a German type certified UL gyroplane. Which, by the way is pretty though.
 

Mike G

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1.4301 is 304 stainless steel. It is an 18/10 Chrome Nickel austenitic stainless steel with a slightly higher minimum yield strength and ultimate strength than the 316 numbers I gave and is usually considered less corrosion resistant than 316.

To my knowledge this does not have a work hardening problem we use it for piping and high pressure tubing in the Oil and Gas industry . The tubing is regularly bent by the mechanics using special tubing and we have no particular problems with work hardening.

It must be said that since the stainless steel frames can withstand the BCAR Section-T structural testing described above I assume that the levels of stress in the frame are usually very low, in which case you could say that for normal operating conditions the Magni use of 4130 steel is overkill (all be it a cheaper overkill), however in a crash or very hard landing the Magni should be more robust. Even this may not be true in reality it all depends upon how well designed the frame is to absorb the shock.

When are we going to get a website in English for the MT03?

Mike G
 

steveb

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Mike G

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Just looking at the BCAR Section-T structural test requirements.
600 kg is not much more than the max allowable weight, which I suppose is about 450 kg, I couldn't find any data on the websites.
Dropping an object from 33 cm height means it hits the floor at 2.54 m/s or 500 fpm or 9 kph or 5.7 mph.
Is this such a difficult test to pass?

Mike G
 

greeny

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Brian
Is this a two seater or a four stander gyro? ;-)

Mike G said:
.. 600 kg is not much more than the max allowable weight, which I suppose is about 450 kg ..
Could it be you mix MTOW and payload?
German UL can weight 300 kg (660 lb) MTWO single seat or 450 kg (990 lb) double seat.
A test load of 600 kg would be nearly three times the max. payload.
 

bpearson

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Certainly going to give the Italians something to think about although I think the way the CAA have not taken into account the service record of Magni 2000's is disgusting. Not surprising though considering how they view machines with a forty year safe flying record (Cricket).
Most people I speak to think the price of a new Magni is 15K too much so maybe the MT 03 is going to fill our skies !
How did the vertical cg turn out Steve ?
Brian.
 

Mike G

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Greeny you may be right, Steve Boxall said "loading up the airframe with over 600kg " which could mean adding 600kg.
Can Steve clarify the situation?

Mike G
 

Mike G

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Brian

What is holding up the Magni in UK? If the MT 03 can get through the tests, what's the problem with Magni?

I had a chat with our metallurgist today and his reply was that the 304/316 materials were very ductile and forgiving and that they didn't have a particular work hardening problem, they are like most metals once they yield they start to harden but they're probably more forgiving than 4130 in a fatigue scenario.

I'd still like to know why ELA and MT use 304 instead of 4130 especially if 4130 is cheaper.
Perhaps it's a bit more difficult to find in Europe.

Regarding the price has anyone done a real side by side comparison of the Magni and the MT03 with the same options plus VAT. I'd be surprised if there was a big difference in the end

Mike G
 

steveb

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Mt-03

Mike

The reason why the MT-03 is going through in the UK is that all the necessary structural test have been done, and where necessary small mods have been done to meet the requirements.

The reason why I was vague about the weights in the drop test is that I didn't have the exact numbers to hand when I made the post. I'll check and get back to you.
 

bpearson

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Mike. Maybe the delay with the Magni is the factory's reluctance to do all of the tests that sec T requires. I heard that Vittorio Magni cannot understand why we allow the RAF 2000 to fly yet insist on unreal loads being put on his machines to 'tick all the boxes'. I can see his point.
Steves' picture of four men standing on the tail.... I believe it would take six if they could have all got on, is impressive but is that level of strength needed ? How did the CAA come up with the sec T figures ?
To totally ignore service history is crazy and possibly goes some way to explain why Magni is not in any hurry to conform. He might also now realise that his product is very pricey now compared to the new kids on the block.
Brian.
 
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