Emergency Landing - Magni M24, Stockton Beach, NSW, Australia I

Kai Kern

Newbie
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Alicante, Spain
Aircraft
Diamond DA40
Total Flight Time
600
It has not been a good week for the Magni community as yesterday another Magni M24 had an accident. Luckily the crew had only minor injuries. Damage on the M24 looks substantial.
 
It has not been a good week for the Magni community as yesterday another Magni M24 had an accident. Luckily the crew had only minor injuries. Damage on the M24 looks substantial.

Looks like an engine issue and a landing on a beach by the pilot and due to soft uneven sand a flip over. Not a big deal. I'd take that any day compared someone getting really hurt. I will venture a wild guess that fuel supply (fuel pump) may have a part to play here.
 
Seem to be a lot of reports of failure in 915 rotax engines from fuel pump failure and the engine computer going into self-preservation mode when things are not right.
The Aussie modification on the basic 912 ULS ...makes the same power as 915 ...but much simpler engine management system & not as heavy! Seems to have had a solid testing in the field now for over 5 years! pretty trouble free to my knowledge! Still got to deal with carbs vs fuel injection!
Awaiting ... post Covid travel ability to get our guys trained to install SP kits HERE ..as many 912ULS owners begging for more power without the crazy expense/weight penalty of 915!
 
But..but...Muh 4 stroke!
Reliability is a funny thing to quantify.
In order to address a problem, you first need to see theres a problem.
I hope the guys in Austria figure out whats going on, we gyros use our engines harder then fixed winngers.
 
There was an engine blip on takeoff in a 915 Cavalon I was doing some training in last year. The instructor called the tower and asked for an immediate landing. End of training for the day.
Guess what... it turned out to be another bad fuel pump.
 
Seem to be a lot of reports of failure in 915 rotax engines from fuel pump failure and the engine computer going into self-preservation mode when things are not right.
The Aussie modification on the basic 912 ULS ...makes the same power as 915 ...but much simpler engine management system & not as heavy! Seems to have had a solid testing in the field now for over 5 years! pretty trouble free to my knowledge! Still got to deal with carbs vs fuel injection!
Awaiting ... post Covid travel ability to get our guys trained to install SP kits HERE ..as many 912ULS owners begging for more power without the crazy expense/weight penalty of 915!
Not just 915 but 912iS as well as 914 fuel pumps in 2019 and all of 2020. 2021 should be fine. Can't elaborate more
 
In regards to the fuel pump failures, my understanding is that 914/915 don’t have mechanical pump but instead main and secondary electric pumps? If so and the main pump fails then the redundant design of the secondary pump should prevent engine stoppage, assuming it is turned on?
 
In regards to the fuel pump failures, my understanding is that 914/915 don’t have mechanical pump but instead main and secondary electric pumps? If so and the main pump fails then the redundant design of the secondary pump should prevent engine stoppage, assuming it is turned on?

Yes 914, 912iS and 915iS (iS engines are fuel injected) use electric fuel pumps only. In these engines you should definitely make sure that both your fuel pumps are working correctly during warm up. Very easy on iS engines because if you shutdown one fuel pump and just running on the other if its fuel pressure drops below 36 psi, the engine will immediately start to shutdown
 
There was an engine blip on takeoff in a 915 Cavalon I was doing some training in last year. The instructor called the tower and asked for an immediate landing. End of training for the day.
Guess what... it turned out to be another bad fuel pump.

I have returned 8 2019 or 2020 fuel pumps for 915iS. There have been at least 2 AutoGyro 915iS fuel pumps that have failed and replaced (not counting one you mentioned). 2021 are different and supposedly better. 2018 were fine as well made by AC Delco. 2019 switched to a different vendor
 
In regards to the fuel pump failures, my understanding is that 914/915 don’t have mechanical pump but instead main and secondary electric pumps? If so and the main pump fails then the redundant design of the secondary pump should prevent engine stoppage, assuming it is turned on?
The mechanical fuel pump works fine on a 912 because it does not need to generate the fuel pressures required by turbocharged (or fuel-injected) engines. The electric pump on my 912 is considered "auxiliary", a backup, and I really only turn it on for pre-start and at takeoff.
 
Craig McPherson's had IIRC 3 fuel pumps burn out at 40 hours each time on Tercels.
One pump died at a time so no engine outs yet because there are two.
Don't think he has a 915 yet so it must have been on 914's?
Craig suggested we make the return fuel lines bigger on the ARGON 915 and see if ours has no problems.

All new engines including certified aircraft engines problems that turn into AD's to fix problems.
Do not know of any certified engine that does not have AD's to fix these same type of problems.

Same with the float problems on Rotax was a problem at first. Not heard of any problems with floats after they found and replace them.

This will be the same.
Never trust a new engine until the fleet has several thousand hours on it.
Similar to the Yamaha conversions. They found a couple of problems. After that, they have been proven to be dependable.
Still, trust Rotax 4 strokes more.

My thinking is to replace one pump to test it.
Even if the new pump burns out in 20 hours at least the other should make 40 hours.
If the old burn out first. Then replace with the new pump.

Either way, I would not set off on an around-the-world trip or over water/forests until they figure this out. Same as the floats.
 
Hi Everybody,
Could I suggest that people keep an eye on WillyRose's thread "Training for Emergencies" where he reported on an engine failure one of his gyro pilot colleagues experienced with a Rotax 914 engine. The problem was a failed fuel pressure regulator. (Willy Rose has posted that his colleague will post a full report in due course).

I have an ELA07S gyro with the 914 turbo engine. The gyro was idle for about 8 weeks about 4 years ago while I was awaiting delivery of a new rotor hub bar and refurbished rotors. When I was doing the DI after installing the new rotor hub bar and rotors, only one fuel pump worked. Luckily, a very experienced local fixed wing CFI and vastly experienced engine mechanic was visiting the airfield at the time. He suggested turning on only the faulty fuel pump and giving the pump body a few "gentle taps" with the handle of a screwdriver. The pump worked and has not failed since. I now make sure to test each pump separately during Daily Inspection and several times during engine warm-up.

It's worth cleaning the fuel pump filters and gascolator filter and doing a fuel flow test at least once a year. During this summer, I also drained all the good fuel from the tank. There is normally 3L of unusable fuel at the bottom of ELA07 gyro carbon fibre fuel tanks which cannot flow from the tank because of the way it is designed. I then jacked up the port main wheel and the nose wheel about a foot off the ground and fully drained the 3L of "normally unusable" fuel from the bottom of the tank. This 3L of sump fuel contained about a half litre of milky coloured "crap" probably made up of sediment and debris/condensation from inside the fuel tank walls. I plan to fully empty the fuel tank after each winter as part of the usual maintenance work from now on. None of the sump crap got as far as the fuel pump filters and seemed to have been trapped by the in-line main fuel filter and the gascolator. This fuel tank cleanup is something that might need to be done with other carbon fibre or HDPE or metal tanks on an annual basis given the possibility of ethanol or water contamination in mogas nowadays.

Thanks to Willy Rose for reporting the faulty fuel pressure regulator issue. Thanks to all who shared their experiences with electric fuel pumps.
John H.
 
FYI, there was a SB for mandatory replacement of the fuel-pressure regulators on 914s back in 2011: SB-914-040 UL
I would be curious to know if this SB applied, and had been done, to the engine mentioned above.
 
Craig McPherson's had IIRC 3 fuel pumps burn out at 40 hours each time on Tercels.
One pump died at a time so no engine outs yet because there are two.
Don't think he has a 915 yet so it must have been on 914's?
Craig suggested we make the return fuel lines bigger on the ARGON 915 and see if ours has no problems.

All new engines including certified aircraft engines problems that turn into AD's to fix problems.
Do not know of any certified engine that does not have AD's to fix these same type of problems.

Same with the float problems on Rotax was a problem at first. Not heard of any problems with floats after they found and replace them.

This will be the same.
Never trust a new engine until the fleet has several thousand hours on it.
Similar to the Yamaha conversions. They found a couple of problems. After that, they have been proven to be dependable.
Still, trust Rotax 4 strokes more.

My thinking is to replace one pump to test it.
Even if the new pump burns out in 20 hours at least the other should make 40 hours.
If the old burn out first. Then replace with the new pump.

Either way, I would not set off on an around-the-world trip or over water/forests until they figure this out. Same as the floats.

haha. Yamaha. No comment.
return line should be what installation manual calls for. In 915 all fuel lines are 3/8 ID.
oil lines are 5/8.
return lines won’t do anything if fuel pumps fail.
 
Hi Everybody,
Could I suggest that people keep an eye on WillyRose's thread "Training for Emergencies" where he reported on an engine failure one of his gyro pilot colleagues experienced with a Rotax 914 engine. The problem was a failed fuel pressure regulator. (Willy Rose has posted that his colleague will post a full report in due course).

I have an ELA07S gyro with the 914 turbo engine. The gyro was idle for about 8 weeks about 4 years ago while I was awaiting delivery of a new rotor hub bar and refurbished rotors. When I was doing the DI after installing the new rotor hub bar and rotors, only one fuel pump worked. Luckily, a very experienced local fixed wing CFI and vastly experienced engine mechanic was visiting the airfield at the time. He suggested turning on only the faulty fuel pump and giving the pump body a few "gentle taps" with the handle of a screwdriver. The pump worked and has not failed since. I now make sure to test each pump separately during Daily Inspection and several times during engine warm-up.

It's worth cleaning the fuel pump filters and gascolator filter and doing a fuel flow test at least once a year. During this summer, I also drained all the good fuel from the tank. There is normally 3L of unusable fuel at the bottom of ELA07 gyro carbon fibre fuel tanks which cannot flow from the tank because of the way it is designed. I then jacked up the port main wheel and the nose wheel about a foot off the ground and fully drained the 3L of "normally unusable" fuel from the bottom of the tank. This 3L of sump fuel contained about a half litre of milky coloured "crap" probably made up of sediment and debris/condensation from inside the fuel tank walls. I plan to fully empty the fuel tank after each winter as part of the usual maintenance work from now on. None of the sump crap got as far as the fuel pump filters and seemed to have been trapped by the in-line main fuel filter and the gascolator. This fuel tank cleanup is something that might need to be done with other carbon fibre or HDPE or metal tanks on an annual basis given the possibility of ethanol or water contamination in mogas nowadays.

Thanks to Willy Rose for reporting the faulty fuel pressure regulator issue. Thanks to all who shared their experiences with electric fuel pumps.
John H.
Are you in the US?
what kind of gas are you using today n that composite tank. hopefully ethanol free.
 
Are you in the US?
what kind of gas are you using today n that composite tank. hopefully ethanol free.
Hi Abid,
I am based in Ireland. We use fresh Texaco fuel from a very busy fuel station, 99% of the time. Not sure if any fuel is ethanol free nowadays. I do not think composite tanks are the best or most chemically and structurally robust option. I would prefer an aluminium tank similar to your AR-1 fuel tank. I would be concerned that integrated tanks or composite tanks would fracture in the event of a hard landing or worse. The fuel does not sit in my tank too long as we fly anytime the weather permits.

Tyger, thanks for mentioning SB-914-040 UL. We are compliant with this SB. ELA also mandated replacing push-fit type fuel connectors with compression type pipe connectors on the same fuel pressure regulator. I am surprised and concerned that so many pilots have fuel pump failures. Is it a design flaw with the fuel pumps or the fuel pipe / fuel pressure regulator network?
Best regards, John H.
 
Hi Abid,
I am based in Ireland. We use fresh Texaco fuel from a very busy fuel station, 99% of the time. Not sure if any fuel is ethanol free nowadays. I do not think composite tanks are the best or most chemically and structurally robust option. I would prefer an aluminium tank similar to your AR-1 fuel tank. I would be concerned that integrated tanks or composite tanks would fracture in the event of a hard landing or worse. The fuel does not sit in my tank too long as we fly anytime the weather permits.

Tyger, thanks for mentioning SB-914-040 UL. We are compliant with this SB. ELA also mandated replacing push-fit type fuel connectors with compression type pipe connectors on the same fuel pressure regulator. I am surprised and concerned that so many pilots have fuel pump failures. Is it a design flaw with the fuel pumps or the fuel pipe / fuel pressure regulator network?
Best regards, John H.

is your engine from 2019 or 2020?
If so the fuel pumps are aspect.
 
is your engine from 2019 or 2020?
If so the fuel pumps are aspect.
Hi Abid,
My engine is of 2006 vintage. Haven't seen any Rotax fuel pump directives for my engine. Are the fuel pumps considered part of the Rotax system or are they part of the aircraft manufacturer's responsibility? John H.
 
suspect, maybe?
You mention a failed pressure regulator. Can we assume that replacing that has fixed the problem? If so, I guess it's not the pumps, unless it can be shown that they somehow caused the other part to fail (overpressure?) while continuing to function themselves.
OTOH, 15 years is a long time for any small electric motor in regular use, it seems to me.
 
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Hi Abid,
My engine is of 2006 vintage. Haven't seen any Rotax fuel pump directives for my engine. Are the fuel pumps considered part of the Rotax system or are they part of the aircraft manufacturer's responsibility? John H.
Fuel pumps on 914, 912iS, 915iS are part of the engine and come from Rotax. Your old 2006 fuel pumps should be good although that's pretty old fuel pumps and nothing lasts forever. They are Pierburg not the new ones which are the same Taiwanese manufacturer who makes them now for iS engines.
 
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