Electronic Governor

[HobbyCAD]

I am interested to buy one of the Mosquito governor units Rotor F/X is advertising on e-Bay, but want to use it in my own heli, not a mosquito. Can anyone post some details about the unit? What throttle actuator does it use? Can anyone post a picture of it? Does it use magnets to sense RPM, or a magnetic pick-up off some gear, or some other electronic sensing signal? If magnets, how many magnets on the shaft, and what shaft RPM for 100%? Does the actuator only pull the throttle linkage, or is it push/pull? Does it have a clutch override?

An install doc will be usefull, that should give me all the info I want, to decide if it will suit my purpose.

Thanks

 

[HobbyCAD]

I have looked at possibly doing my own governor design, the automotive types don't meet my requirement. How difficult can it be to use an NE544 servo driver as a baseline IC, and build a controller from first principals?

One choice is to use an R-22 governor actuator, and wire in my own electronics. I'm not too keen on using the large R-22 electronic controller, but on the other hand, it works...

I've seen the R-22 system mods advertised on-line, used on the Safari heli's, but as I said before, not keen to use the large controller box.

Maybe I should use an R-22 actuator, it's simply a DC motor, the output is geared down, and on an adjustable clutch. The other option is to use parts of an STEC A/P servo. I have disassembled a pitch servo, it also has a nice little adjustable clutch on it. It won't be too difficult to integrate the clutch mechanism into my throttle circuit, between the correlator and the throttle input to the throttle body. That way I still have correlation when I pull in collective, the governor does not have to work the pitch/throttle correlation as well.

For electronics, I have thought of going for the Futaba GV-1 Governor. I can get it to drive a powerfull servo, something like the ultra high torque Invenscience i00600 Torxis servo. With all this fully programmable governor and servo response processing, coupled into an STEC servo's clutch, maybe I have a winner.

Or...., if I can figure out exactly how the Mosquito system works, and am able to adjust it to work on my 550 RRPM, it's a far better deal to just buy the complete kit that Rotor F/X is selling on e-Bay...

 

[HobbyCAD]

Does anyone have any details or info on the Blue Streak governor controller? I believe it used to be available, but cannot find anything about it any more.

Any info on the unit will be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Jon]

governor

governor

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RPC-250-1223/

I am fairly certain that this is the controller that mosquito uses for their governor. I saw a picture of the whole mosquito system one time. I talked to a guy that put one on the millennium helicopter, he said that it did not work like he needed it to.

With that being said I have the same controller in use on my helicopter and I like the way it works. You can't beat the price tag either. If you look at the latest videos that I posted on you tube you will see that the governor works. After setting it I don't have to adjust the throttle again. I run the rotor rpm up to 520 and pull in a little power and set the governor.

It gets its signal from the same magnets used for the rotor tach. All you do is change the dip switches to get the correct pulses.

If you are using a push pull rod to the throttle then you will be able to over-ride the governor in both directions. But if you wire in a rocker switch you can raise or the lower the rpm with it.

I am sure there are some better governors out there but this one works for me.

 

[Jon]

governor

governor

Here a governor for a rotorway on ebay it may or may not work for you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rotorway-162F-Exec90-RPM-Electronic-Governing-System-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3350352a3bQQitemZ220388993595QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear

There is also a governor on the vortech hot specials web page.

 

[Jon]

governor

governor

I am almost certain that this cruise control is the basis for the mosquito governor.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RPC-250-1223/

I saw a picture of the complete mosquito governor and I am sure this is it.

I talked to a guy that tried to use the mosquito governor on the millennium helicopter and he said that it would not work for him.

I am using the universal cruise control module listed above for the governor on my helicopter and I am satisfied with the way it works. You can download the installation manual from summit and it shows how to program it.

http://youtu.be/Fs3s8yDtgeg

Here is the latest video of my helicopter and I am using the governor. I was able to let go of the collective and wave for a few seconds. I do not have any throttle correlation linkage and I don't think that I really need it. I have flown my helicopter without the governor and no correlation and I think that it is fine.

 

[HobbyCAD]

Morning Jon,

Had a look at the e-Bay, Vortech and Summit Racing parts. Thanks for sending the info.

The RW governor kit on e-Bay uses the Blue Streak governor controller that I'm looking for. Does anyone have more info on it? where can I purchase just a controller?

The Vortech electronic controller is the same unit used by the turbine heli guy's, to govern their T62's. Anyone have more detailed info on it's operation, an operation or maintenance manual of some kind? Seems like it can work for me. In my days of playing with T-62's, I had units out of Alturdyne GPU's, they had mechanical fuel pressure regulated governors, not the torque motor/electronic controller style governor.

The Summit Racing kit is a typical automotive type. Yes, it can work, but I made the "tactical" decision early on to not go for such a style controller. If the mosquito kit uses the same controller, it's just gone off my list...

Tell me, so you have to get your system up to RPM, then hit "set", and it will attempt to keep it there. It only pulls on the throttle linkage, does not actively push it back? You have to rely on the spring return of you throttle setup to lower the throttle, when the cable releases. What if it pulls in power, and you want to drop it back, can you override the pulling action? I suppose this depends on how you integrate it, not on the fact that it's pulling only. Have you flown it, does it droop the RPM when you pull in fast, or overspeed when you drop fast? Maybe I should try one out on a bench.

Thinking on how it works, seeing it has a cable or pullrod connection, is it simply a DC motor that activates, and winds up a cable? Does the motor wind back in reverse, under power, or does it simply slowly releases when it wants to throttle down. I guess what I need to know, does the actuator mechanism inside the controller get driven both ways, or only in one direction.

I'm a bit sceptic on the quality of the actuator motor inside, if it's anything like a central locking motor, it's all plastic. Hmmmm, not sure about that. Mind you, it should work in a car for a couple of years of daily use, much more wear and tear than if used as a heli governor.

Comments please, assistance with finding documentation on the Blue Streak and T-62 controllers?

Also, can anyone confirm the mosquito system is the same automotive controller as the Summit Racing style one?

 

[bryancobb]

Frank R.'s the Man!

Frank R.'s the Man!

...Maybe I should use an R-22 actuator...

Based on my knowledge of Frank Robinson and his design team's approach, I would say that the R-22 system is as simple and light as a reliable, safe governor system can be.

Why reinvent the wheel?

I kind of like the HU-m1aN governor. It's compex and heavy but works.
Flying a non-governed piston helicopter is like flying a Tail-Dragger.
Those who fly them are the best pilots.

 

[phantom]

eletronic governor

eletronic governor

on my next project I am going to use a woodward governor that has an eletromagnetic servo that will in case of failure go loose so I can control manually, it is adaptable for gas, diesel and turbine engines.

Norm

 

[Jon]

Tell me, so you have to get your system up to RPM, then hit "set", and it will attempt to keep it there. It only pulls on the throttle linkage, does not actively push it back? You have to rely on the spring return of you throttle setup to lower the throttle, when the cable releases. What if it pulls in power, and you want to drop it back, can you override the pulling action? I suppose this depends on how you integrate it, not on the fact that it's pulling only. Have you flown it, does it droop the RPM when you pull in fast, or overspeed when you drop fast? Maybe I should try one out on a bench.

I am using a 2000 subaru 2.5 engine on my helicopter so the throttle body shaft has a place for two cables. I attached the throttle cable to one and the governor cable to the other. Since there is only a cable attached to the throttle body then it can only pull and rely on the return spring to pull the cable back out. Once you set the governor then it keeps the rotor rpm in the green whether I am climbing or descending. I have about 17 hovering hours on this governor so far. There is a rocker switch on the cyclic grip that will raise or lower the rpm if needed there is also an on-off switch.

I would like to say that a governor of any kind certified or experimental should only be used to reduce the pilot workload and not be solely relied upon to maintain rotor rpm. It is very important to be able to fly the helicopter without a governor. When I was learning to hover my helicopter I did rely on my governor a lot but I still backed up the governor with the manual throttle control just in case. As I got more confidence I would turn the governor off and hover using only manual control.

 

[HobbyCAD]

Based on my knowledge of Frank Robinson and his design team's approach, I would say that the R-22 system is as simple and light as a reliable, safe governor system can be.

Yes I like the R-22 governor performance. Only problem, I cannot find an old time-x or "not so U/S" governor motor, they are as scarce as hens teeth. If anyone has one for sale, consider it sold, I'll take it in a heartbeat !!

What I don't like, is the bulky control box, and having to mod it to work in my application. Yes, it's the simplest approach, but I like to at least invent something for it !! If I casn first get hold of an R-22 governor actuator, I'll be 90% there.

Anyone know of one for sale? Any condition, please contact me.

 

[HobbyCAD]

Jon, I'm happy yours works, but I have this little voice telling me to build a bit more intelligence into the governor controller. I am seriously considering purchasing one of the Summit units, put it on a bench, feed it with a variety of signals, and see how it performs. What I need to know, is how much and how fast does the Summit controller respond to RPM fluctuations.

In my mind, a good controller should not only drive the actuator motor up and down, but it should drive it at different reaction speeds, depending on how far the desired govern preset RPM is from the actual sensed RPM. If the governor needs to make small changes, the actuator should be driven slow, if the governor needs to make large changes, the actuator should be driven fast. As the sensed RPM nears the desired RPM, the actuator should start backing off slowly. These features will give a smooth RPM control, and prevent RPM over/undershoot, drooping or hunting. There must also be an adjustable deadband window at the desired preset RPM in which the governor will not correct the RPM, to prevent the motor continuously switching on and off at minute RPM changes around the desired RPM. Another function of the controller should be when starting up, to kick in only at 80% of the desired preset RPM, thus making engine starting easy. Once started and ready, the governor can be activated, but it will not spool up the engine, it will wait for the RPM to be manually raised pased 80%, before taking automatic control of the RPM, raising it up to the desired RPM. Once it kicks in, it keeps up with the job, even if you drop down past 80%. I'm still thinking what should be implemented for autorotation training, some function that will drop the throttle to just below the point where the overrunning clutch stayed disengaged, some method where the overruning clutch input and output RPM are sensed, and the engine RPM is lowered to just below the sprags output RPM, and actively keep following this point, so that when power needs to be added, a simple pushbutton command will throttle up, instantly taking up the power again. A handy feature will be an RPM trim function, to be able to in-flight, adjust the govern RPM between 95% to 110% of the 100% preset RPM, depending on pilot demand.

Is this too much of a wishlist?? All can easily be done with today's little PICs and some carefull programming.

 

[HobbyCAD]

I wanted to attach the datasheet of the ESD-5200 governor controller Stan is using on his T62-32, but it's 2Kb too big for the 150Kb forum limit.

So many governor choices coming along... This type of unit fits my description of an adjustable unit. The only issue, at first glance, I cannot use the R-22 DC motor actuator with the ESD-5200. If my memory serves me right, what I have seen of local turbines with this controller, it moves it's torque motor actuator output at a high speed, and it's rather jerky. It will make the throttle grip feel strange in my hand, pulsing around like that.

 

[HobbyCAD]

You mentioned the type of governor I have which I still can't tell you.

Morning Stan,

Is this the controller that you have installed in your heli? http://www.governors-america.com/public_file/file/27/PIB1030_A_ESD5200_SERIES.pdf?1240846086

 

[jpanside]

Morning Jon,

Had a look at the e-Bay, Vortech and Summit Racing parts. Thanks for sending the info.

The RW governor kit on e-Bay uses the Blue Streak governor controller that I'm looking for. Does anyone have more info on it? where can I purchase just a controller?

The Vortech electronic controller is the same unit used by the turbine heli guy's, to govern their T62's. Anyone have more detailed info on it's operation, an operation or maintenance manual of some kind? Seems like it can work for me. In my days of playing with T-62's, I had units out of Alturdyne GPU's, they had mechanical fuel pressure regulated governors, not the torque motor/electronic controller style governor.

The Summit Racing kit is a typical automotive type. Yes, it can work, but I made the "tactical" decision early on to not go for such a style controller. If the mosquito kit uses the same controller, it's just gone off my list...

Tell me, so you have to get your system up to RPM, then hit "set", and it will attempt to keep it there. It only pulls on the throttle linkage, does not actively push it back? You have to rely on the spring return of you throttle setup to lower the throttle, when the cable releases. What if it pulls in power, and you want to drop it back, can you override the pulling action? I suppose this depends on how you integrate it, not on the fact that it's pulling only. Have you flown it, does it droop the RPM when you pull in fast, or overspeed when you drop fast? Maybe I should try one out on a bench.

Thinking on how it works, seeing it has a cable or pullrod connection, is it simply a DC motor that activates, and winds up a cable? Does the motor wind back in reverse, under power, or does it simply slowly releases when it wants to throttle down. I guess what I need to know, does the actuator mechanism inside the controller get driven both ways, or only in one direction.

I'm a bit sceptic on the quality of the actuator motor inside, if it's anything like a central locking motor, it's all plastic. Hmmmm, not sure about that. Mind you, it should work in a car for a couple of years of daily use, much more wear and tear than if used as a heli governor.

Comments please, assistance with finding documentation on the Blue Streak and T-62 controllers?

Also, can anyone confirm the mosquito system is the same automotive controller as the Summit Racing style one?

Sir, your ideal governor is also what I desire. Did you settle on a specific unit? I am wary of using the Mosquito (aka Rostra) cruise control. I would like something that has been proven and tested in copters. Thank you!

 

[MH1FLYER]

Francios,

I tried one of those Rotor FX governors on the Yamaha engine. We tried everything to try to get it to work, and we never could. It almost trashed my helicopter several times so I gave up. I think Rick is going to play with the Robinson governor on his helicopter at some point. For now I have been playing with the collation on my helicopter and I have it almost as perfect as it can be and I really enjoy flying the throttle. Mines good enough I don’t have to play with it very much anymore unless I do something aggressive which I don’t do very often unless I have to.

 

[HobbyCAD]

Hi John,

Thanks for responding to my queries about the R-FX governors.

John and Taeyang, I am working on my own governor, it will do exactly the same as the analog circuitry Robinson control box. You will see my Skeeter already has the stock Robinson governor motor integrated into the throttle/collective control circuit.

My analog circuitry consists of an input conditioning circuit to clean up the input RPM pulses. I sense the input pulses of the same MRT hall effect sensor that drives the tacho. The cleaned up signal goes through to some sample and hold circuitry, from where it gets compared to a reference signal. This reference is adjustable, creating in-flight governor RPM control. I also have some circuitry that required the input to first pass 80% of the reference signal, before it allows a drive output. I have a ramp-up circuit that will ensure that a large variation in signal reference will cause a large drive signal, and as the variation decreases, the intensity of the drive signal will decrease. This should be able to quickly grab large droops, but not cause hunting around minor RPM changes. The last part of the circuit is an H-bridge, this will drive the Robinson DC actuator.

As usual, not enough time in the day. I have too much on my fork right now.

Cheers,

F.

 

[bryancobb]

Yes!!!

Yes!!!

... unless I do something aggressive which I don’t do very often unless I have to...

That, my friend, is a smart pilot's way to fly! It will preserve your machine and your @$$. I have no doubt that the WAY I flew helped with my good experiences with both my Brantly and my 1997 Mini-500.

Aggressive flying is funnnn but is just not very prudent.

 

[cburg]

I've got a governor for my RW ordered...should be here any day.

 

[cburg]

Most readers here know all this, but it’s only fair that people who don’t…be made aware of the Governor story.

FAA conclusion: "The electronic governor reduces pilot workload, especially in critical times."
PB96-917003
NTSB/SIR-96/03

“In June 1995, the technical panel released its report, dated March 17, 1995, to the Safety
Board. The report summarizes the panel's actions and outlines recommendations for further design
changes, operating limitations, and future actions. Specifically, the panel recommended the
following: (1) that the R22 be reconfigured with an electronic engine rpm governor similar to that
previously installed in the R44;33 (2) that the low rpm warning threshold be increased to activate at
a higher rpm and the audio warning be added through the R22's intercom system; (3) that the
operating limitations be changed to increase the minimum power-on rpm limit to 97 percent; (4)
that the cyclic control be removed for all passengers in the left seat; and (5) that normal flight
operations with the governor switched off be prohibited. The technical panel further recommended
that the simulation and modeling program initiated by Georgia Tech be continued until Safety
Board concerns and any deficiencies discovered by simulation were satisfied.”

“A technical panel created by the FAA in response to earlier
Safety Board recommendations completed its research in March 1995
and recommended further research and design enhancements. Also,
the FAA and the RHC conducted flight testing of the R44 in July
1995 to evaluate its performance in the approved flight envelope,
and the FAA contracted with the Georgia Institute of Technology
(Georgia Tech) to perform computer simulation modeling of the R22
main rotor. The Georgia Tech research was concluded with a report
to the FAA in December 1995. In response to RHC initiatives and
technical panel recommendations, the FAA issued a notice of
proposed rulemaking in December 1995, which asked for comments on
a proposal to require modification to R22s to include installation
of a new rotor speed governor.”

“The FAA has conducted tests of the low rpm warning systems of the R22 and R44 and
has required changes to these systems. The Safety Board is also aware that a new R22 rotor
speed governor has been introduced by the RHC, and that the FAA plans to issue an AD to
mandate its use. The proposed AD would increase the low rotor warning rpm threshold and
mandate the use of the governor except under certain situations.”

“According to the RHC, all R22 helicopters produced after serial number 2510 have an
electronic fuel control governor14 as standard equipment, and a kit became available to install the
new governor in other models of the R22 about August 1995. The electronic governor reduces
pilot workload, especially in critical times. It also prevents underspeeds, thereby preventing rotor
stall under certain conditions, and it prevents overspeeds that can overstress the rotor system.”