ELA vs MTO

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
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Good call Scott - Thanks!

Good call Scott - Thanks!

Wow just re read this again this morning and still don't like post 7. So sorry want to get some Clarification.form CFIBob. I think that that was a reference to Abid and Silverlight.
So let's get this straight. CFIBob claims that a real Gyro manifacturer builds al in house.
1. Abid staited that they where going to build in house EXCEPT FOR the Motor And the ROTOR.
2. You said builds Everything in house. Bet Rotax will be surprised that you use there name on your Motor.
3. I'll bet the Gauges are out sourced.
4. The lights are out sourced
4. Maybe tires I could be wrong they have put a tire Manifacturing plant in house to.
I believe that that taking cheap shots at a company that's new is Bad Form. (bull ****e).
It sound like your nervousness of the new company's that are emerging in the Gyro field.
And worry about the future sale not Realy about the machine. It's great to be on top when there is only a couple players. Any one can say where in the top Three when there is only Three players. I believe the Apollo is a knew Gyro but have read more than one CFI say that it was a good Gyro. It is built on a basic design and then improved on. Just like MTO......
And I do believe auto gyro was not always a TRIED AND TRUE Company they started just like every one else from squire one with no Proven record. Iam glad they make a good machine and have help boost this sport around the world. I think the AR1 is going to be a great machine. Try Not slamming on a company just because they are younger then yours if they haven't done anything wrong other then change your market share.
Sincerely Scott
Being reactive on forums to posts with pointed provocations :boink: seems to foster unnecessary angst! :argue::painkiller::flame:

Been there ---"dun-me block" :boom: ...... win sum/loose sum :eek:hwell: :peace:

I particularly enjoy it when some-one "neutral" validates my thorts!

Now we are marketing agents for Titanium AutoGyro / TAG Aviation ... I gotta "behave" ... here!;) ...:tape::censored:



Thanks for say'n it!
 

fara

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You are no FUN Chris !!!! :). LOL
 

GyrOZprey

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YOU want FUN!!!!????

YOU want FUN!!!!????

You are no FUN Chris !!!! :). LOL
:D ... I gotta take it elsewhere ... where it's appreciated & not taken offensively!!! :lol:
:violin:

..."Behav'n sucks" ... but at least there is the OTHER sandbox! :eek:hwell:
 

PW_Plack

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Look at the company behind the gyro. Look at how many are/have been produced. Is it a true manufacturing company? Or is it a few guys in a hangar putting parts together that are sourced from outside companies?

...You will find real gyro companies manufacture nearly all parts 'in house...you are spending 60k plus for claims and promises...when you can get tried and true for the same or nearly the same price.
Bob, I think we all admire the success achieved by Autogyro, but there are a few gambles taken when you buy one of those, too. What will it cost if you keep and fly it up to the life limits on its major parts? Are we sure the redesigned rotors have solved the problems that led to the emergency airworthiness directives in the UK and Germany? How long will the prerotator last?

Regarding "a few guys in a hangar," I can think of at least two US gyro kitmakers who answer to that description who've been around longer than Autogyro. They don't compete in the same market segments, and can't claim the same sales volumes, but their kits come with AN hardware, and with rotors and frames which can be flown past 2500 hours.

If you don't know you can sell hundreds of something, the decision to outsource can be a smart one for the company, and a better value for customers.

Autogyro has a good and growing network of dealers and trainers in the US, and the future is bright. The entire sport owes them a debt of gratitude for helping us be taken more seriously. But for many, the more durable materials and lower costs being offered by smaller companies may be higher priorities than style, level of finish, or corporate stability.
 
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Just saw this thread. Have aluminum blades been known to crack? What would cause that? Rapid temperature variations plus wear?

Other question: aside from not being factory-built, are the Auto-Gyros imported into the US the same as the ones that pass the UK certification for "type approval" or Section T or whatever it is?
 

XXavier

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Metal fatigue...

Concerning the quality, I'm sure that Auto-Gyro is a serious company, and that they would never supply substandard units.
 

Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
ELA production - newly built and newly registered this month machine

0615 446 07 22 as EC-MHY in Spain

ie

built June 2015

Machine #446

912 engine


Magni total now over #910
AG MTOsport - now over #1302
AG Cavalon - now over #220
AG Calidus - now over #395
 

PW_Plack

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Have aluminum blades been known to crack? What would cause that?
Ed, the document is here. The company says its redesigned hub bar and attachment scheme has relieved the stresses which caused the issue referenced in this bulletin. My only point in bringing it up is that buying from a big company is no assurance you're gamble-free.

The choice of aluminum alloys is more limited when extrusion is chosen as the manufacturing process. The report from Cranfield University on its investigation into the cracking of the extruded blades there noted, "The blade was stated to be manufactured of 6005 aluminium. This is a low strength aluminium alloy..."

Once the dies are made it's easy and cheap to make uniform copies of the blades in large quantities, but there may be a trade-off in fatigue resistance compared to materials available to designers of hand-built blades such as Dragon Wings and Sport Rotors, which come from small companies. Bigger is not always better.

Other question: aside from not being factory-built, are the Auto-Gyros imported into the US the same as the ones that pass the UK certification for "type approval" or Section T or whatever it is?
The original kits may be, but since no gyro kit sold in the US has an FAA type certificate nor S-LSA/E-LSA acceptance, nor any requirement to follow the European certification, there is no requirement for a builder here to use the parts supplied with the kit. Changes aren't always made to save costs, and don't always compromise safety. (Switching to US-standard AN aviation-grade bolts has traditionally been a common change made by Magni builders in the US, for example.)

Conversely, even if it's built exactly to match a design with a European approval, the US build will carry the standard warning placard required to be displayed to passengers in any Experimental Amateur Built aircraft, warning that it is not required to meet US regulatory standards.

If buying a European kit-built aircraft used, learning which if any parts have been substituted falls on your due diligence as the buyer. If you're buying one new and putting it together at a factory build center, ask questions if any substitutions are suggested, if compliance with the European standard is important to you.
 
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fara

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There is a lot of talk about Aluminum extrusion blades cracking when the cracking happened to AutoGyro Gmbh blades never to Averso or some of the other Aluminum blades. Keep context and perspective. I try and not comment or go too deep on brand specific issues but I keep hearing this stuff put in a generalized generic statement about all Aluminum blades. Helicopter blades have a very different fatigue profile going on with the power pulses that are continuous and they need a lot of maintenance.

The design of the hub clamping area from AutoGyro Gmbh given the soft 6005 series Aluminum was wrong. It should have never been designed that way. They changed it.

6005 series Aluminum also flexes way too much and is very soft and the concentration of the bend was allowed by an inefficient design in a clamping bolt area near one particular point with the hub bar clamping having no way to bend at a similar rate as the blade so of course the crack would start to appear where it did.

20xx series Aluminum is a much more appropriate Al to use for extrusion and also the wall thickness needs to be right to get the right strength to flexibility profile to last the expected lifecycle. An an example, Averso uses 20xx series blades and hub bar and is 20 pounds heavier system than AutoGyro Gmbh blades and they have never had a cracking issue. Chris ran a simulation of Averso rotor system in bending loads as they are used on Arrowcopter. He was quite satisfied with the results.

We should not try and generalize things that should not be generalized. Be safe guys.
 

fara

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There are differences between BCAR Sec T compliant MTO and others and what you get in the US.
First the mast rotorhead position is different for the UK.
Second, the assembly is done in the UK by the listed manufacturer of Record which is not AutoGyro but RotorSport. There are some other small subtle differences in the design there that RotorSport does and maintains. They treat AutoGyro Gmbh as an approved assembly and parts supplier if I am not mistaken.
 
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Have newer Auto-Gyros been known to crack rotor blades? Or, anecdotally, has their clamp redesign appear to have alleviated the cracking issue? (Even if it may still not be as theoretically resilient as other designs.)
 

fara

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Have newer Auto-Gyros been known to crack rotor blades? Or, anecdotally, has their clamp redesign appear to have alleviated the cracking issue? (Even if it may still not be as theoretically resilient as other designs.)
Not that I know of. They changed the hub bar and clamping design and since then have not seen the issue. I don't know if its been long enough to collect enough time on a significant part of the fleet with new system or not but I would suspect it may have been
 

PW_Plack

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A few years ago at Oshkosh (2011?), they claimed the new design had been tested to >8,000 hours, IIRC, in a university study. Details, including the name of the university, were not provided, but I believe the life limit on the blades was raised to 2,500 hours at that time.
 

loftus

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Metal fatigue...

Concerning the quality, I'm sure that Auto-Gyro is a serious company, and that they would never supply substandard units.
Auto-Gyro is a serious company, and also a very successful one in the world of gyros. This also means that decisions have to be made relating to quality, durability and costs which usually means compromise. Every aircraft is a compromise and any successful aircraft company will achieve a balance in cost vs safety, durability etc.
I have no doubt that many elements of Autogyro aircraft could be improved, but always at a cost. I have changed the prop on my MTO as an example. Some companies such as Arrowcopter, Titanium etc I believe have raised the bar in terms of improved quality etc, but both have yet to prove profitable. Such are the realities of business.
 

XXavier

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Auto-Gyro is a serious company, and also a very successful one in the world of gyros. This also means that decisions have to be made relating to quality, durability and costs which usually means compromise. Every aircraft is a compromise and any successful aircraft company will achieve a balance in cost vs safety, durability etc.
I have no doubt that many elements of Autogyro aircraft could be improved, but always at a cost. I have changed the prop on my MTO as an example. Some companies such as Arrowcopter, Titanium etc I believe have raised the bar in terms of improved quality etc, but both have yet to prove profitable. Such are the realities of business.
Of course, every industrial product is a compromise. I was just stating that a serious manufacturing company keeps the quality of its products within the standard limits that it has fixed for their fabrication, and will never make 'special runs' of substandard, cheaper parts...
 

GK2

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I saw the Tag gyro at the Wrens fly in and it looks very nice. Should have some video of it flying soon.
 

GyrOZprey

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WE too!

WE too!

I saw the Tag gyro at the Wrens fly in and it looks very nice. Should have some video of it flying soon.
We were delighted to see Danny & his white Titanium Explorer join the Florida FLYING-IN contingent ....demonstrating the new-gen gyros as enjoyable cross-country aircraft! :yo:

Looking forwards to your next videos! :D
 

cessna.682

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Thanks to everyone, the information is greatly appreciated. I new the early comments about the ELA frame, assembly and rotors were incorrect, but that was addressed by the group. Are their any significant differences in flight characteristics of the various models?
As I said before, I enjoy every contribution, but it is a little disappointing that I got no comments on actual flying differences in the top brands. ELA seems to be the third top gyro producer in the world and no one who has flown one offered any comments on how it, and the composite rotor, fly in comparison to others. Are there no ELA pilots on board? Other brands are still being considered, but beyond looks, how do they fly? What about TAG vs. MTO, or Apollo vs. MTO or TAG? Looks are important, but I also wonder about flight characteristics. Are they all basically the same?
 

fara

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I can tell you about Apollo. I have flown in MTO and TAG and Magni but not in the ELA.
But it would be better to talk to customers. If you message me I can give you their contact info and you can talk to them and decide.
Apollo will be AR-1 and now is being produced in the US from tubing onwards.
 
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