ELA vs MTO

cessna.682

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I don't recall many mentions on this forum of the ELA gyroplanes. I know there are not as many open ELA models flying as there are MTO models, but they seem to have a large modern factory in Spain and there seems to be a pretty big presence throughout the world. I also know that importing to the USA has just begun, through Aerotrek. I am thinking about a gyroplane purchase and I have flown the MTO and the Apollo, loved them both. I would really like to hear from anyone with an ELA experience. I know the design of all three is very similar, but I understand the ELA has a composite rotor instead of aluminum. Any comments or comparisons would be very welcome.
 

GyrOZprey

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Composite rotors ....

Composite rotors ....

I don't recall many mentions on this forum of the ELA gyroplanes. I know there are not as many open ELA models flying as there are MTO models, but they seem to have a large modern factory in Spain and there seems to be a pretty big presence throughout the world. I also know that importing to the USA has just begun, through Aerotrek. I am thinking about a gyroplane purchase and I have flown the MTO and the Apollo, loved them both. I would really like to hear from anyone with an ELA experience. I know the design of all three is very similar, but I understand the ELA has a composite rotor instead of aluminum. Any comments or comparisons would be very welcome.
on USA EAB gyros ...... factory models - Magni & Titanium Explorer use composite rotors ... and it seems ELA have recently moved to composite rotors ..... Arrowcopter, Autogyro, Apollo are using extruded aluminium rotors ..the Averso's from Europe have a good reputation ... Abid will no doubt chime in on that!

The US AirCommand owners & many homebuilt ..."Classic" gyros that go with composite rotors LOVE their McCutchen SKYWHEELS! Thankfully Jim has resumed manufacturing these much sought-after rotors!

Do take a close look at the new gyro in the US market - Titanium Explorer ... from TAG Aviation (Australia) ... it is modelled after the ELA ...with lots of upgrades & goodies ...standard! New all carbon composite rotors on a tervamaki-style hub-bar(titanium) ...total weight for 28ft rotor 75lbs!

TAGNA ( Titanium AutoGyro North America) represented by
Jim Ph 316 435 2238
Chris Ph 316 435 2091
Mark Airey( Dallas area) & Desmon Butts (Houston) .... go to TAGNA website for more information! http://usautogyro.com
 
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Texasautogyro

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From what I understand only one flying ELA is in the US at the moment. It is near Dallas Texas. The owner from what I have heard loves it. However the build was much more involved then the MTO. The MTO uses there own blades. Extruded aluminum. The ELA uses the same blades as the Apollo. The ELA does not use a stainless frame. As Chris pointed out the Titanium gyro has very unique placement in the US market with many advantages. Price is super competitive. Higher useful load. More storage and to many options to count that come standard. Of course corrosion is not an issue. Also many extrusion blade are time limited. Just food for thought.

Just so you know MTO is a copy of the ELA. They have some differences but ELA came first
 

fara

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ELA, AuyoGyro and Apollo all use different blades actually.
Apollo uses Averso Stella blades made in France. These blades are used by ArrowCopter. They are a good 20+ pounds heavier than AutoGyro blades and have never once had any cracking issue

Apollo is being replaced with AR-1 with some changes including getting rid of the pesky and complex pneumatic system with a simpler mechanical system and everything for the gyro save the rotors and engine are made in America right here in Florida. I am keeping it low right now but hopefully deliveries will begin soon and you will see all new AR-1 US made gyro in action that is convertible. Fly like MTO or put canopy on and fly with cabin heat in less than an hour.
We are also working on offering US made composite blade option for people who prefer composite blades. We are making parts for 50 gyrooplanes and getting ready to try and execute 25 to 30 unit sales within US and Canada for next year.
 

XXavier

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Just two comments. IIRC, from the ELA I owned, the frame is stainless steel (not perhaps the best material for the task) and the rotor blades are composite, carbon fiber with an aluminium nucleus. And they are manufactured in the ELA factory.
 

MattPearson

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From what I understand only one flying ELA is in the US at the moment. It is near Dallas Texas. The owner from what I have heard loves it. However the build was much more involved then the MTO. The MTO uses there own blades. Extruded aluminum. The ELA uses the same blades as the Apollo. The ELA does not use a stainless frame. As Chris pointed out the Titanium gyro has very unique placement in the US market with many advantages. Price is super competitive. Higher useful load. More storage and to many options to count that come standard. Of course corrosion is not an issue. Also many extrusion blade are time limited. Just food for thought.

Just so you know MTO is a copy of the ELA. They have some differences but ELA came first
Desmond let me make a few corrections. The build was ultra simplistic (my opinion), the blades are ELA in-house built carbon fiber with aluminum spar (very high performance) and the frame is built from stainless steel exactly as most other euro gyros. I do love flying it! Big BORE 912 is the only way to go!! and the Sterna prop(my addition, thank you Abid) is hands down the best prop I have ever used.
 

cfibob

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MTO, ELA and others

MTO, ELA and others

A major difference...the MTO is accepted UK Section T. While others claim to meet these standards ...they simply do not. Otherwise they would actually be tested. AutoGyro and Magni can only make that claim to date. Not all 'Euro Gyros' are the same. There are many excuses by other companies why they are not officially accepted in the UK. It is a stringent standard. The UK has strict standards on gyros and gyro pilots...the safety record is proof that it works. Many other nations follow the standards set by FAA(USA) and CAA(UK). Unfortunately the FAA does not have rigid standards for modern gyros in place yet so many nations defer to the UK...a quality standard, a strict standard.

Look at the company behind the gyro. Look at how many are/have been produced. Is it a true manufacturing company? Or is it a few guys in a hangar putting parts together that are sourced from outside companies? Is it a side line to trikes or fixed wing aircraft? You will find real gyro companies manufacture nearly all parts 'in house'. I am sure the parts that come from China, Philippines, India, etc. are all quality aircraft parts. After all Boeing does it and no problems there...right? Just something to be said for companies that have direct 'in house' control. I know all companies have to start somewhere but you are spending 60k plus for claims and promises...when you can get tried and true for the same or nearly the same price. I am not a gambler. AutoGyro and Magni stand out.

Just my opinion...
 

fara

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Desmond let me make a few corrections. The build was ultra simplistic (my opinion), the blades are ELA in-house built carbon fiber with aluminum spar (very high performance) and the frame is built from stainless steel exactly as most other euro gyros. I do love flying it! Big BORE 912 is the only way to go!! and the Sterna prop(my addition, thank you Abid) is hands down the best prop I have ever used.
Glad you are enjoying the Sterna prop on your awesome ELA gyro Matt. Appreciate your kind words.
I am going to be stocking 20 sets of Sterna props (courtesy of the factory) to service my customers faster and our AR-1 will use this prop as standard. This is the first prop I helped design/test for ASTM compliance. We had some growing pains mainly with figuring out the right type of finish paint to use on prop blades but things should be settled now.
 

fara

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...

Look at the company behind the gyro. Look at how many are/have been produced. Is it a true manufacturing company? Or is it a few guys in a hangar putting parts together that are sourced from outside companies? Is it a side line to trikes or fixed wing aircraft? You will find real gyro companies manufacture nearly all parts 'in house'. I am sure the parts that come from China, Philippines, India, etc. are all quality aircraft parts. After all Boeing does it and no problems there...right? Just something to be said for companies that have direct 'in house' control. I know all companies have to start somewhere but you are spending 60k plus for claims and promises...when you can get tried and true for the same or nearly the same price. I am not a gambler. AutoGyro and Magni stand out.

Just my opinion...
Bob ... side line to trikes and airplanes??? Is that a reference to us? Yes we make trikes and airplanes as well and for many years. To me that's a plus because it shows we have been around aircraft for a long time and our customer service and safety record there has been quite good.
I think I will start with proven rotor system like Averso because it's quite good and it has been around for a long time without any cracking or any issues like that ever.
 
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cessna.682

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Thanks to everyone, the information is greatly appreciated. I new the early comments about the ELA frame, assembly and rotors were incorrect, but that was addressed by the group. Are their any significant differences in flight characteristics of the various models?
 

fara

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Thanks to everyone, the information is greatly appreciated. I new the early comments about the ELA frame, assembly and rotors were incorrect, but that was addressed by the group. Are their any significant differences in flight characteristics of the various models?
I have not flown in the ELA but it was the basis for MTO. In fact the first MT registered with DULV and certified with DULV was mostly an ELA. You can find that information freely in interviews on the web given by AutoGyro owners and others.
 

wnwgj

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UK CAA Section T is a good standard but if you read the documentation on the CAA website, I would be pretty nervous of flying anything that could not pass it. The requirements are, for the most part, pretty reasonable. It's more of a question of economics I think - it is a very expensive test to go through as the UK CAA will charge you at uncapped full commercial day rates. The CAA is also very busy so it is hard to get a reply from them sometimes. You can expect it to cost £50k+ to get through on top of required engineering modifications. The UK market for gyros is pretty small. I can understand why manufacturers might prefer to go for other certifications such as the quite similar German BUT certification which is widely accepted outside Germany.
 

Texasautogyro

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Thanks for the clarification Matt. I stand corrected. I would love to see that machine some time.
 

Steve_UK

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""UK CAA Section T is a good standard but if you read the documentation on the CAA website, I would be pretty nervous of flying anything that could not pass it. The requirements are, for the most part, pretty reasonable. It's more of a question of economics I think - it is a very expensive test to go through as the UK CAA will charge you at uncapped full commercial day rates. The CAA is also very busy so it is hard to get a reply from them sometimes. You can expect it to cost £50k+ to get through on top of required engineering modifications. The UK market for gyros is pretty small. I can understand why manufacturers might prefer to go for other certifications such as the quite similar German BUT certification which is widely accepted outside Germany. ""

I agree with Will.

Scrutiny by a respected orgaisation such as the UK CAA ( type approval ) or German BUT is the current gold standard.

At the moment Auto-Gyro ( over 2,000 gyros built ) and Magni ( over 900 gyros built ) reap the rewards of having met and passed such standards with sales right across the globe.

The standards bar was raised earlier this year with the "Cavalon Pro" model being the first to achieve UK Type Certification ( as oppossed to Type Approval ).


Trust me you wouldn't want to buy/fly a gyro designed and built by me.
 

XXavier

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The sales figure reached by Auto-Gyro, in only a few years, is excellent... For its part, ELA has been building gyros since 1997, and I believe that their total sales are probably below those of Auto-Gyro but above Magni's.

It's a bit surprising that Auto-Gyro has dealerships in many countries, but not in Spain.
 

Steve_UK

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Hi Javier,

I keep an eye on newly registered gyrocopters.

My estimation is that ELA have built approx 430+ gyros - if correct that is under half of Magni's approx 910+ machines.

ELA sell well in Spain ( ! ) and did previously sell very well in South Africa. Many in France too. Few in Germany, three in the USA and zero in the UK. Present in many other countries in small numbers.

They've recently launched two new models 09 Junior and 10 Eclipse so sales may grow.


Regards


Steve
 

swilliams

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Wow just re read this again this morning and still don't like post 7. So sorry want to get some Clarification.form CFIBob. I think that that was a reference to Abid and Silverlight.
So let's get this straight. CFIBob claims that a real Gyro manifacturer builds al in house.
1. Abid staited that they where going to build in house EXCEPT FOR the Motor And the ROTOR.
2. You said builds Everything in house. Bet Rotax will be surprised that you use there name on your Motor.
3. I'll bet the Gauges are out sourced.
4. The lights are out sourced
4. Maybe tires I could be wrong they have put a tire Manifacturing plant in house to.
I believe that that taking cheap shots at a company that's new is Bad Form. (bull ****e).
It sound like your nervousness of the new company's that are emerging in the Gyro field.
And worry about the future sale not Realy about the machine. It's great to be on top when there is only a couple players. Any one can say where in the top Three when there is only Three players. I believe the Apollo is a knew Gyro but have read more than one CFI say that it was a good Gyro. It is built on a basic design and then improved on. Just like MTO......
And I do believe auto gyro was not always a TRIED AND TRUE Company they started just like every one else from squire one with no Proven record. Iam glad they make a good machine and have help boost this sport around the world. I think the AR1 is going to be a great machine. Try Not slamming on a company just because they are younger then yours if they haven't done anything wrong other then change your market share.
Sincerely Scott
 

AirScooter

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3. I'll bet the Gauges are out sourced.

Sincerely Scott

Funny you mention gauges being outsourced. I have heard that the gas gauges they use on their machines don't always read accurately. But that is just what I heard, not sure it's true.;)

I have personally witnessed the lack of customer service in the Maryland Auto Gyro dealership.

I have also personally witnessed outstanding customer service at a new up and coming American made brand.
 

swilliams

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Thank you who ever the Moderator was that corrected my bad spelling will do better to keep it out of my post.

Sincerely scott
 
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fara

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In Bob's Defence; I don't think he singled us out only. The reference to aircraft parts from China etc. was obviously to TAG.
Most of the gauges that are steam gauges are now manufactured in China so it's highly likely that AutoGyro has Chinese gauges somewhere. They use other off the shelf parts in pre rotator system that are made in Asia for European companies. It's hard to get completely away from that today. Their Bendix is made in Brazil. The 6 flute shaft and coupler in pre rotator system are made in Asia though they may not know that themselves. There is some relation I am told to a composite shop in Slovenia according to some European airplane manufacturers. As best as I know the canopies in most all LSA in Europe are supplied by a German company but they outsource that to a factory in CZ Republic. Not make it themselves.

We are using most of the steam gauges from UMA that are made in the U.S.
 
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