ELA Eclipse 10 N70WP 1/17/24

[Vance]

Minor injuries, substantial damage

AIRCRAFT ATTEMPTING TO TAKEOFF ROLLED OVER ONTO ITS SIDE, YUMA, AZ.

 

[GyrOZprey]

I have been reviewing the gyro accidents in the last 5 years ...seems like an AWFUL LOT of TO & landing phase accidents!
Thinking of trying to prepare a safety seminar for Bensen days!

WHAT IS GOING ON ????

Improper use of power (high-powered engines)?
Insufficient TRAINING???
Too many brain-farting-older pilots -poorly transitioned from FW!?????

 

[scottessex]

I'm going to go with
"B"
No reason to crash on take off .

 

[Vance]

I have been reviewing the gyro accidents in the last 5 years ...seems like an AWFUL LOT of TO & landing phase accidents!
Thinking of trying to prepare a safety seminar for Bensen days!

WHAT IS GOING ON ????

Improper use of power (high-powered engines)?
Insufficient TRAINING???
Too many brain-farting-older pilots -poorly transitioned from FW!?????

In my opinion the non-injury takeoff accidents I have investigated have usually been either rotor mismanagement or not achieving climb out speed before encountering obstacles.

The rotor mismanagement is generally people simply not paying attention to rotor rpm or reverting to fixed wing habits.

The not climbing out at the proper airspeed appears to me to come from an unreasonable fantasy that pointing the nose up will make the gyroplane go up.

These are such simple things I don’t know if someone could talk on it for an hour.

I would be happy to give it a try at Mentone.

 

[Mayfield]

I have not compiled the accident list vis-a-vis cause.

It would not surprise me if takeoff accidents outnumbered landing mishaps.

I have observed people trying to takeoff with inadequate rotor speed for almost 60 years.

Now I will commit heresy.

Learning to balance on the main gear is valuable. It teaches one to really feel the rotor as it reaches flight RPM. When balanced on the mains the gyro is actually flying. If you pulled back on the stick the gyro would most likely leave the ground. However, you would probably be so far behind the power curve that the aircraft would settle to the ground immediately. If the pilot did not have the presence of mind to control yaw the aircraft would touch down sideways and possibly roll over.

All that being said, I (me, personally) have never flown a gyro that could not be safely flown by pre rotating to some value at or beyond 150 RRPM or so, smoothly pulling the stick to the aft stop, smoothly adding throttle, and monitoring RRPM to insure it is increasing. At some combination of RRPM and IAS "Rock back" will occur. Ease the stick forward until balancing on the mains, or even gently tapping the nose wheel on the ground, and continue to add throttle.

Be prepared to add a little forward, left stick and right rudder as the aircraft leaves the ground. When the aircraft reaches Vy you will feel the machine start to levitate. Note the speed and don't leave ground effect until that speed is reached.

Wow! I've used a couple of hundred words to say: don't have too much airspeed at low RRPM and don't leave the ground until the aircraft is going fast enough to climb

jim

Note: the above info applies to two blade, teetering rotor gyros

 

[GyrOZprey]

I am SO glad that I spent many hours in my single-seat gyro balancing on the mains and when Desmon soloed me ( - when he judged me good & ready.!)..I still did a LOT of low hops, higher hops , low flights along the runway (my airport had a 7000' and 3500' runways) ..many many TO's & landings - BEFORE I went around the pattern all by myself!

I would not have got all that wonderful experience in rotor management & FEEL if I had owned a 2-place gyro from the get-go!

 

[Sv.grainne]

I'm agreeing with comment's above and totally not understanding these incidents.

Rrpm on takeoff, follow the POH, feel the machine, it will tell you when it wants to fly, fly the damn thing.

 

[gyroplanes]

I'll bet it was hard linked rudder pedals to nosewheel. I see a bunch of the new style gyros rolling over in Europe and other far away lands.

 

[mark biddle]

immm, what about cross wind?

 

[Mayfield]

I'm agreeing with comment's above and totally not understanding these incidents.

Rrpm on takeoff, follow the POH, feel the machine, it will tell you when it wants to fly, fly the damn thing.

I believe you are correct Bobby. Like most procedural accidents, takeoff accidents are easily avoidable with just a little care.

If you have a POH, follow it.

Without a POH:

Establish what your absolute minimum pre rotation RRPM is and never start a takeoff roll without at least that much RRPM.

Never start a takeoff roll without the stick being fully back.

Be smooth with power application. As you apply throttle take the time to insure increasing RRPM as the aircraft rolls forward.

You should know the approximate "rock back" speed for your aircraft at the current loading. The rock back IAS will be the same at different DA.

As you approach this speed and the nose becomes light, anticipate it and begin applying forward stick pressure. Although we all want to be able to balance on the mains with every takeoff, don't concentrate on that to the exclusion of other sensory input. It's okay if the nose wheel taps the ground.

The above sentences are not meant to replace guidance from your CFI. He knows you and your machine and hopefully can provide germane guidance.

One other comment. The throttle is not a single pole, single throw switch. You do not have to slam it full forward on every takeoff. Easing the throttle forward extends your processing time during your early flights. As you become more comfortable, you will still move smoothly, but faster.

Jim

 

[Rattler 1]

I have been reviewing the gyro accidents in the last 5 years ...seems like an AWFUL LOT of TO & landing phase accidents!
Thinking of trying to prepare a safety seminar for Bensen days!

WHAT IS GOING ON ????

Improper use of power (high-powered engines)?
Insufficient TRAINING???
Too many brain-farting-older pilots -poorly transitioned from FW!?????

Do you actually know the age of these so called brain-farting -older pilots? Has there been a study done on this topic? At what age does one become one? Where is that line? I just want to make sure that I stop flying when I reach it.

 

[ArnaudHP]

Cause #1 : lack of training
Cause #2 : lack of training
Cause #3 : lack of training
...........

 

[MikeBoyette]

Cause #1 : lack of training
Cause #2 : lack of training
Cause #3 : lack of training
...........

Always the excuse for a poor design. These accidents can be prevented with proven design improvements. Many here have drank the European Kool-aid and think a hard coupled nose wheel is the answer with enough training.

I again say that with enough training most people could ride a unicycle and still not be safe because it's not natural. Most people are going to feed the correct rudder in during a cross wind and its very easy,especially when your fairly new to gyros coming from fixed wing to forget about the nose wheel. The cure for this is a free castoring nose wheel and differential braking. Like the fixed Wings that most of these people buying 100k gyros are already used to.

The other thing that they could do is develop a proper prerotator that can be engaged with the stick back. This would eliminate the jack rabbit take offs thus allowing a normal balancing takeoff without being rushed.

Full span tail is another improvement. There are a whole lot of people who think they are ugly. I for one prefer them. Much less work as you don't have to hardly touch them in flight. They also help greatly with p-factor and torque roll. Looks should be secondary to ease of flight and forgiving nature of a machine.

I'm sure that no one starts their fixed wing flying in a Pitts Special. Later once you have hours ans desire it get a squirrely machine that requires constant attention. Until then, why not have a machine that has mechanisms and flight surfaces that improve the safety as well as the ease of flight.

I am partial but my thoughts are influenced by Dad and Uncle Chuck. A machine that has the thrust line as close as possible to the CG or slightly above with a tall tail and HS almost flys itself. Lipstick on a pig might impress some but not me. If it is pretty but, flys like crap all crossed up its of no use to me. Give me a stable ugly machine that is able to fly like a dirt bike in the air or a Cadillac. They are so much more fun because they are less work. It's like having an automatic transmission and power steering. I'm sure the 100k crowd will disagree even though they have flown nothing else but their unstable beauty.

 

[Timothy Terbolt]

I have not compiled the accident list vis-a-vis cause.

It would not surprise me if takeoff accidents outnumbered landing mishaps.

I have observed people trying to takeoff with inadequate rotor speed for almost 60 years.

Now I will commit heresy.

Learning to balance on the main gear is valuable. It teaches one to really feel the rotor as it reaches flight RPM. When balanced on the mains the gyro is actually flying. If you pulled back on the stick the gyro would most likely leave the ground. However, you would probably be so far behind the power curve that the aircraft would settle to the ground immediately. If the pilot did not have the presence of mind to control yaw the aircraft would touch down sideways and possibly roll over.

All that being said, I (me, personally) have never flown a gyro that could not be safely flown by pre rotating to some value at or beyond 150 RRPM or so, smoothly pulling the stick to the aft stop, smoothly adding throttle, and monitoring RRPM to insure it is increasing. At some combination of RRPM and IAS "Rock back" will occur. Ease the stick forward until balancing on the mains, or even gently tapping the nose wheel on the ground, and continue to add throttle.

Be prepared to add a little forward, left stick and right rudder as the aircraft leaves the ground. When the aircraft reaches Vy you will feel the machine start to levitate. Note the speed and don't leave ground effect until that speed is reached.

Wow! I've used a couple of hundred words to say: don't have too much airspeed at low RRPM and don't leave the ground until the aircraft is going fast enough to climb

jim

Note: the above info applies to two blade, teetering rotor gyros

Hi Jim

Would you use a different technique on a gyro like the Hawk 4?

I'm not too familiar with the rotor system on that - would you fly it in a similar way to a "normal" gyro, or does it require a different technique?

 

[Mayfield]

Hi Jim

Would you use a different technique on a gyro like the Hawk 4?

I'm not too familiar with the rotor system on that - would you fly it in a similar way to a "normal" gyro, or does it require a different technique?

The Hawk has a fully functional collective.

Jim

 

[Steve_UK]

there is a for sale ad for this gyro ELA 10 N70WP although I couldn't find a date on the ad

2018 Eclipse ELA-10 - Vehicle Selling Solutions FSBO Vehicles - Omaha, Nebraska 68105

The FAA how the registered owner in Indiana - the accident was in Arizona, maybe a connection to the for sale ad.

 

[Abid]

Always the excuse for a poor design. These accidents can be prevented with proven design improvements. Many here have drank the European Kool-aid and think a hard coupled nose wheel is the answer with enough training.

I again say that with enough training most people could ride a unicycle and still not be safe because it's not natural. Most people are going to feed the correct rudder in during a cross wind and its very easy,especially when your fairly new to gyros coming from fixed wing to forget about the nose wheel. The cure for this is a free castoring nose wheel and differential braking. Like the fixed Wings that most of these people buying 100k gyros are already used to.

The other thing that they could do is develop a proper prerotator that can be engaged with the stick back. This would eliminate the jack rabbit take offs thus allowing a normal balancing takeoff without being rushed.

Full span tail is another improvement. There are a whole lot of people who think they are ugly. I for one prefer them. Much less work as you don't have to hardly touch them in flight. They also help greatly with p-factor and torque roll. Looks should be secondary to ease of flight and forgiving nature of a machine.

I'm sure that no one starts their fixed wing flying in a Pitts Special. Later once you have hours ans desire it get a squirrely machine that requires constant attention. Until then, why not have a machine that has mechanisms and flight surfaces that improve the safety as well as the ease of flight.

I am partial but my thoughts are influenced by Dad and Uncle Chuck. A machine that had that has the thrust line as close as possible to the CG or slightly above with a tall tail and HS almost Flys itself. Lipstick on a pig might impress some but not me. If it is pretty but, flys like crap all crossed up its of no use to me. Give me a stable ugly machine that is able to fly like a dirt bike in the air or a Cadillac. They are so much more fun because they are less work. It's like having an automatic transmission and power steering. I'm sure the 100k crowd will disagree even though they have flown nothing else but their unstable beauty.

I don’t know what happened but I will bet lunch with you Mike that coupled nose wheel on ELA Eclipse had nothing to do with this accident. It is going to be behind the curve or rotor blade flap accident (stick position on starting TO roll) due to inadequate training and repetitions to change muscle memory for an older fixed wing pilot). We will have to wait and see. If I am right then there is some responsibility on the instructor signing the guy off for gyroplanes.

How long will it take me to add on a gyroplane to my airplane license. I have 3000 hours in airplanes?
Answer: as long as it takes to do 30 takeoffs from start including pre rotation and then probably a few hours in the air to be competent to test standards.

 

[GyrOZprey]

Agree Abid ... the hard-coupled nose wheel design (PLUS incorrect GEOMETRY - rake angle) of many of the New-Gen gyros IS a factor on botched LANDING technique ...and incorrectly performed T&G's!

ALL landings should allow the airspeed to bleed off as low as possible prior to mains contact - at that point the stick comes full-back to put out that wonderful giant AIRBRAKE above ...when the rotor energy has reduced enough to lower the nose wheel ...there is little to NO FORWARD MOTION - depending on the headwind conditions!

Too many FW-transitioned pilots fly the gyro landing like a FW - with TOO MUCH SPEED prior to touch-down!

Same for " T&G's" - actually in a gyro properly trained T&G's, ARE momentary STOP & GO .... as soon as nose wheel contacts ... check stick back position & Rrpm & power-up again for next TO! ( In my Butterfly single I was able to hold nose wheel off & return straight into a balance-on -mains preparation attitude for TO ... but in the long-nosed 2 place gyros it's safer to allow nose-wheel contact before power-up!)

 

[Sv.grainne]

Same here Christine. In my Aviomania I come to a full stop, nosewheel up, with stick still back accelerate and fly off.

 

[okikuma]

I have been reviewing the gyro accidents in the last 5 years ...seems like an AWFUL LOT of TO & landing phase accidents!
Thinking of trying to prepare a safety seminar for Bensen days!

WHAT IS GOING ON ????

Improper use of power (high-powered engines)?
Insufficient TRAINING???
Too many brain-farting-older pilots -poorly transitioned from FW!?????

I have pondered this dilemma for some time.

The length of each leg of the delta triangle of the tricycle landing gear. A tricycle gear with each leg of the triangle that is equilateral is more stable than a tricycle landing gear with narrow main gear and a greater distance to the nose wheel. Add to this a higher actual center of gravity as compared with the wheels on the ground. Add a direct link steerable nose wheel into this mix and there is a greater chance to have a roll over accident.

For the most part, the Bensen / Brock gyroplanes had an equilateral delta triangle tricycle landing gear with a lower physical center of gravity as compared to the wheels. How often did those machines roll over?



Outside all the other problems these two designs had. Again the equilateral delta triangle tricycle landing gear with a lower physical center of gravity as compared to the wheels. How often these two designs rolled over?




If someone can collect and compile the data, I wonder the the ratio of the number of roll over accidents with Magni M16s as compared to all other "V" keel gyroplanes such as the ELA, MTO, etc.?



I'm not inplying these old designs are better than the new. Those landing gear designs are more tolerant to poor technique upon landing.

In the end, proper training, proper technique, one's diligence and one's level of discipline is the final outcome in remaining safe in all facets of flight from start up to shut down.

Wayne