ELA 09 Junior anyone?

Mr Beveridge

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Some of the early Ken Wallace gyros used the 1600cc VW Beetle engine, one he made with that engine overbored to 2200cc iirc

For a nice weather piece of flying fun you may chose to retain the coil ignition, for certificated flight you may need dual magnetos (one of them impulse mag) for increased reliability and safety.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Here in Ga is a Russian guy selling MTO clones for a good deal.
you supply engine and instruments, I heard 25k for the 2 place and 15k for the single.

https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=search
Seems about right just a bit on the cheap side. What rotor system do they use?
Rotax 912ULS with exhaust, oil cooler and radiator alone would cost $20000.00 and a decent prop about $1000. Instruments about $1300. Proper wiring (tefzel with amp pro connectors with circuit breakers) about $1500 (if you pay yourself $12/hour). A good 2 stage paint job about $2000.00. FAA paperwork and DAR fees about $1000.00. Misc. fittings, hoses, supplies about $1000.00
Total: $51800.00

Our American Ranger kit with all of the things mentioned included $57000.00 ... you build it all if you are up for it and don't care for builder's assist. So this Russian one cheaper but not by a big margin and I can show you how we purge weld, where does the tubing come from, the rotors are venerable Averso Stella and all the work is done by your countrymen here. I can also sell you the basic kit unpainted like this for $29000 but that's not going to get you a gyroplane and I do not want people installing whatever engine in whatever condition and having engine problems and issues later without much support. I have seen that record play out a bunch of times.
 
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fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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But right now in the USA all you have is sportcopter and dominator, then gyrobee and hornet plans it would be nice to see the US market grow. I think that Apollo will be building here soon in Fl.

Hey Scott.
Its not Apollo any more.
Its American Ranger. First model being American Ranger - 1 (or AR-1 for short). There will be two being picked up at Bensen days going to Texas.
Its made right here in Florida, assembled right under my nose, purge welded with Argon using traceable US made 304L tubing, all laser cut metal is done in Brooksville, put together under supervision of an IA and using fire retardant FAA approved composite resin matrix and has a canopy option for cold winters coming soon that can be installed and taken off between summer and winter, has folding mast and folding tail option, adjustable foot pedals, trailing front forks with suspension, larger tail and rudder, mechanical pre-rotator, electric trim, mechanical rotor brake. Matco MC and Tracy O Brian hydraulic brake system (used in Cubs as an upgrade that uses 5606 fluid), SS braided teflon brake hoses, lifetime SS braided teflon oil hoses with AN fittings, Aluminum 17 gallon powder coated fuel tanks. Every switch is a TSO'ed Tyco circuit breaker. Cessna Split Master for separating alternator field from Battery like all aircraft should. Tosten US made grips. All wire is Wire Masters tefzel US made aircraft wire and milspec aircraft connectors. Milspec Cannon plugs modularized wiring scheme, allows you to take the instrument panel out completely. Nothing is cheap non- aircraft grade stuff. You are not about to get these small but important details from any European supplier including even Russian for this small price difference.

So I think I would stop saying there is only Dominator and SportCopter that are American made. I think but I can't be 100% sure that I am making more gyroplanes right now than both of them put together and I am getting more orders coming up.

Come see us bud and check it out with your own eyes. If you have time, you should check out our composite shop and fabrication shop as well that are at different places but all within Florida.

Our basic kit if you are brave enough to build it all by yourself with everything included, including engine and instruments is not too far from the price you will spend on this Russian machine. Within $5000.00 to $6000.00 if you use the same engine and components. You decide what you prefer but we are here to serve you as a company right here in the US. Everything is drawn and modelled in CAD and all parts can be repeated. We follow standard practices for Engineering Change Control and configuration management and try to stay away from doing one-offs all over the place which are impossible to support later. Hell where you are, you can take a long trip and drive the gyroplane here for fixing.

For all the time, money, effort and the lack of support you will spend and enjoy with an alternate Yamaha engine ... let us help find you a used or re-built Rotax 912ULS. It will save a few thousand if the bottom line is the only concern. It works. There are people who can help you with it and its a proven engine made for light aircraft and when you sell your gyroplane, you can actually sell it and get some money for it. You put a non aircraft alternate engine in there and you will find you can't sell it for months or years and you will have a loss much bigger than you think when you do. Another engine coming up would be UL Power's new 150 HP self cooled one but its also expensive

You want it made of 4130 ... no problem. We can do that as an option. $1000 more you get it made of 4130 and powder coated with linseed oil treatment inside.
 
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scottessex

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Thanks for the info Abid, Looking forward to seeing you guys at BD's.
 

kmtck

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North TX
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I wont fly that!
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A few hours in FW
You want it made of 4130 ... no problem. We can do that as an option. $1000 more you get it made of 4130 and powder coated with linseed oil treatment inside.
Abid, this is very interesting and needs more clarifications. I hope you can provide more data points and I do not want to get into the specifics of which one is better but just quantitative analysis.

The tubing you use for 4130 is different in size than the 304L for the same loads? If so this requires different jigs for welds. Basically a completely differnt model as based on the tube dimensions, all the connections change??

So what is the weight disadvantage of using 4130.

Does the gross weight of 1250 still stay the same for this change in material?

You effectively have two models of your gyro... maybe you should market two separate products so people complain less about using 304L:rolleyes:
 

Aviomania

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if you supply engine and instruments the price is not that great for an an-proven design and commercial stainless steel and hardware.

For example.... the Aviomania single seat without instruments and engine start from 14K (15K the German spec and fully stressed and tested model)... and from 22K the 2 seat (French certified) ... both models with advanced aerodynamics... aircraft (AN) hardware and 6061T6 aluminum and 4130 chrome moly ...... just saying.....

As far as the junior the reason you do not see many around is because of the BMW engine... not to powerful, has vibrations and is very heavy. The Junior performs very well with the rotax 912ULS..... but then again the price is not that different from there proper 2 seat.
 

Aviomania

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I just now seen that there is page 2.... my reply above is a response on thread 9 - 14....... on page 1.... sorry .... that tread is about 10 days old.....
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Abid, this is very interesting and needs more clarifications. I hope you can provide more data points and I do not want to get into the specifics of which one is better but just quantitative analysis.

The tubing you use for 4130 is different in size than the 304L for the same loads? If so this requires different jigs for welds. Basically a completely differnt model as based on the tube dimensions, all the connections change??

So what is the weight disadvantage of using 4130.

Does the gross weight of 1250 still stay the same for this change in material?

You effectively have two models of your gyro... maybe you should market two separate products so people complain less about using 304L:rolleyes:
If we set the gross weight at 1232 (560 kg) which is what the structure's design point was, we have 577 pounds (roughly) of useful load even options and more without options. That's a lot. I am thinking to set the gross weight at 1200 pounds and have about 545 pounds of useful load. That is plenty for two big ones and decent quantity of fuel still.

For the 4130 frame, tube Outer dimensions remain exactly the same. Why do they need to change?
The OD dimensions of 4130 tubing would be the 2 x 2 (inches) just like SS, simply the wall thickness would be different to get same strength. The Revo trike we designed years ago uses 2 x 2 square 4130 tubing. We will need 0.065 wall thickness in most of the frame and 0.075 or some doublers in some critical areas. That will shave some weight off the frame but its not a humongous amount. About 9 to 10% of the frame weght. There is plenty of safety margin built in the structure beyond 50% safety margin required for general certification purposes. No need to do new jigs at all. Not sure how you are thinking that is necessary. Plenty of 2 x 2 4130 square tubing available and you can buy a whole mill lot made specifically for you without breaking a bank in terms of a factory setting with whatever wall thickness you desire from Michigan. Where bends are made, you will find each lot to have a different spring back anyway varying from lot to lot of the same exact material from the same factory. That spring back needs to be tested per lot and process adjusted to take that into account. Welding 4130 is a joy compared to welding stainless steel
 
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Boots

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Abid,
(Welding 4130 is a joy compared to welding stainless steel)
I agree , one of the reasons I prefer 4130 and its also a material I have experience with.
Wasn't knocking or complaining about the stainless airframes that you or the other known manufactures are producing . But a no name untested cloned autogyro airframe would really have to be picked over ! Was my point .
Maybe we will see you and the AR-1 at Bensen Days !!! :D
 
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