E-AB Question

[JJ Campbell]

I'm planning on using a builder-assist program to build an E-AB gyroplane. FAR 91.319 says in part:

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway.

Since I live in Northern VA, densely populated is pretty much everywhere. How does this regulation translate to life in the real world of East-coast USA?

Also, do people really announce to the control tower that they are Experimental? I think, the tower is more interested in the plane's performance so something like Light Sport for a fixed-wing or Gyroplane for a Gyro, tells them all they need to know.

 

[PW_Plack]

Ask your builder-assist provider to show you operating limitations from recent builds. They probably allow flight over congested areas provided adequate glide margin is maintained to allow landing without risk of damage to persons or property on the ground, something like that.

You're only required to say "experimental" in first contact with a tower. There's no reason not to do it legally. "Podunk, experimental 123GP is a gyroplane..." is legal and also gives an idea of the performance to be expected.

 

[JJ Campbell]

Thank you Paul. Great advice!

 

[Smack]

My E-AB operating limitations had some verbiage like that in the 40-hour Phase 1, but (I can't recall the exact wording) it was relaxed in Phase 2 to allow such.
Brian

 

[PW_Plack]

Regarding FAR 91.319, every EAB aircraft has "special operating limitations." Whatever they say defines your limits.

 

[Resasi]

Question on airspace for the phase one. The airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of 14 CFR Part 91 (generally primary airports within Class B airspace areas), from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, aircraft operating within this airspace must be equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having Mode C capability.

If the aircraft/gyro is fully equipped as required for this airspace would it be allowed to do the phase one in the veil? One airport being considered is just within a Mode C Veil

 

[mark treidel]

Resasi,
The short answer to your question is yes. The required equipment now is not just the Mode C transponder but also ADS - B
as well within the Mode C veil. I fly out of a Class D (tower controlled) airport that is just outside the 1st concentric ring of Class
B and 20 NM inside the veil. As long as you remain clear of the Class B airspace, but still within (corrected) the veil, you should be ok provided you do not violate any other restricted airspace on the sectional. The airspace should be already designated by the FAA for your phase one operation in your papers however. Hope this doesn't confuse you further.

 

[Resasi]

Thank you Mark, good new indeed and very welcome.

Unfortunately, and very disappointedly, after over one year with our would-be DAR, it seems that problems they have had with the FAA has meant we are now searching for another one.

Just another little episode of 'life getting in the way'.

As they say patience is a virtue, and right now my enforced sainthood is weighing heavy indeed, though of course it could be Karma for past misdeeds.

 

[Tyger]

Just to clarify, you can't be "under" the so-called Mode-C veil, just inside or outside it (even if you are over it (above 10,000 ft) ADS-B Out would generally still be required).
As Mark implies, we should really be calling it the "ADS-B veil" now, but I guess that's five syllables instead of three...

 

[mark treidel]

Yes, perhaps I should have said 'within' (rather than under) the veil (but I did correct it for you).
Semantics, Tyger....so very important these days...
Perhaps the below excerpt will assist you in your attempted expert edification efforts here on the forum.
Here is a prime example from our friendly folks at the FAA.
Just keeping it light...

​

Subject: FAA NPRM NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (NPRM) Part 0, Section 000 (a) 1(c) Section I - No pilot or pilots, or person or persons acting on the direction or suggestion or supervision of a pilot or pilots may try, or attempt to try or make, or make attempt to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the herein mentioned Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by, the Administrator. Section II - If a pilot, or group of associate pilots becomes aware of, or realizes, or detects, or discovers, or finds that he or she, or they, are or have been beginning to understand the Aviation Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in writing, the Administrator. Section III - Upon receipt of the above-mentioned notice of impending comprehension, the Administrator shall immediately rewrite the Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further comprehension hazards. Section IV - The Administrator may, at his or her discretion, require the offending pilot or pilots to attend remedial instruction in Aviation Regulations until such time that the pilot is too confused to be capable of understanding anything.

 

[DavePA11]

Hi Mark, how do you think an Magni M22 with 914 would do out here in Colorado? Would it have any issues with flying at 11,000 around the mountains? Also, do you know how it would be possible to fly a gyro into plate valley without ads-b now or would have to have that installed first? Thanks

 

[mark treidel]

Dave, I do not have any experience with the M22/914 but I assume it would be comparable to my AR-1.
I do not think the 914 would be enough to get you out of trouble in a mountain flying incident although it
would operate sufficiently at that altitude. I would feel much more comfortable with the extra power of the 915 turbo
given a choice and would also want 30' blades on the M22. I do not know if Magni even makes them over 8.4M.

Platte Valley is inside the Mode C veil so you would need ADS-B to operate there. If you're looking for a
reliable combination, let me know & I will connect you to the mfgr. I just put a new Echo unit in mine and it's flawless.
Installation was not too complex and went smoothly for me. Their support is equally impressive.

 

[WaspAir]

The Denver class B is particularly nasty. The class B airspace extends beyond its own 30 nautical mile veil at very low altitude. At the south edge where I fly gliders, 34 nautical miles south of the DEN tower, you are outside the 30 mile veil but actually still inside the class B airspace at only 2,000 ft. agl. You don't need just ADS-B there, but also a class B clearance (which they don't grant there to non-airliners) and all that goes with it.

The usual stepping-up-with-distance shape for class B design is a joke because the terrain rises, so the airspace hugs the ground while you're still a cross-country flight away from the airport.

 

[All_In]

Question on airspace for the phase one. The airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of 14 CFR Part 91 (generally primary airports within Class B airspace areas), from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, aircraft operating within this airspace must be equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having Mode C capability.

If the aircraft/gyro is fully equipped as required for this airspace would it be allowed to do the phase one in the veil? One airport being considered is just within a Mode C Veil

The DAR gave us a map of the test area we can fly the 40 hours off in, two weeks ago for the ARGON. It includes most of San Diego Country except for the class B airspace. The test area includes Brown Field KSDM and Gillespie Field KSEE that are both within the 30 mile Mode C. We have ADS-B.

 

[Resasi]

That would seem a good confirmation thanks John.

Was wondering if you have a copy, or link to the gyro specific build log that needs to be filled out. I had one somewhere but can't seem to find it. Also if you have a good explanation on how it works, I had a quick look but it wasn't immediately obvious.

 

[All_In]

Was wondering if you have a copy, or link to the gyro specific build log that needs to be filled out. I had one somewhere but can't seem to find it. Also if you have a good explanation on how it works, I had a quick look but it wasn't immediately obvious.

I believe from your description you are asking about the FAA's from = "Amateur-Built Fabrication and Assembly Checklist" for gyroplanes.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av...built/kits/media/AmBuiltFabAssyCklistGyro.pdf

For all the Aviomania's I imported for Nicolas I sent them a copy for each model filled in so they would almost be exactly alike.
You also have to know the hours for each task the manufacture did. That always comes from the manufacture of the kit.
The form is confusing/subjective in one person may select a build sequence "Task # on the form" and another may enter the hours in the one they think fits bests.
For the ARGON I asked Raul for a copy so at least the "Task" #'s were the same.
I'd ask Dennis for a copy and use that as your easy guide.

 

[All_In]

PS:
Here is one on the FAA's site filled out as an example for a Cavalon: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av...s/nket_list/media/Auto-Gyro_Cavalon_Cklst.pdf

 

[All_In]

PS:
There is a separate one for helicopters: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av...built/kits/media/AmBuiltFabAssyCklistHelo.pdf
And for FW.

 

[Resasi]

Thanks John that does look like quite and old one and seems to be type specific.

I know that Denis does not have one made up and wonder if this will be a requirement?

Guess I may need to turn to the EAA for some guidance unless any one else know if you use that one or one has to make one up for the type?

Did you use that one for the Aviomania?

 

[All_In]

Thanks John that does look like quite and old one and seems to be type specific.

I know that Denis does not have one made up and wonder if this will be a requirement?

Guess I may need to turn to the EAA for some guidance unless any one else know if you use that one or one has to make one up for the type?

Did you use that one for the Aviomania?

Yes for all of Aviomania's and the DAR used the same form just a couple of weeks ago. The one I got from Raul that I filled in with our hours for the ARGON.

The Dar asked for it so I believe you are going to need one.
.
PRA/I'd be happy to help Dennis create one from the ones I have scanned filled in. Removing the pod etc.
Or send Dennis Aviomiana's and he could do the same thing.