E-AB Question

That would seem a good confirmation thanks John.

Was wondering if you have a copy, or link to the gyro specific build log that needs to be filled out. I had one somewhere but can't seem to find it. Also if you have a good explanation on how it works, I had a quick look but it wasn't immediately obvious.
Are you looking for the 51% build checklist? I have a current generic form that I can share.
 
I have a sample generic gyro build checklist in Excel (spreadsheet) format, based on the FAA-linked pdf John shared. I used a modified version of the Excel file for my build.
I would attach it, but this forum seems to allow only photos, pdfs, etc as attachments.
I can email it to anyone interested.
 
Dave, I do not have any experience with the M22/914 but I assume it would be comparable to my AR-1.
I do not think the 914 would be enough to get you out of trouble in a mountain flying incident although it
would operate sufficiently at that altitude. I would feel much more comfortable with the extra power of the 915 turbo
given a choice and would also want 30' blades on the M22. I do not know if Magni even makes them over 8.4M.

Platte Valley is inside the Mode C veil so you would need ADS-B to operate there. If you're looking for a
reliable combination, let me know & I will connect you to the mfgr. I just put a new Echo unit in mine and it's flawless.
Installation was not too complex and went smoothly for me. Their support is equally impressive.
I’ll have to look at rotor lengths. MTO seems to come with 8.6m rotors. What size do you fly with on your AR-1? Have you flown around the mountains yet or specifically around Evergreen? Maybe 915 is the way to go…Thanks for the feedback! The Echo unit looks nice.
 
Last edited:
Dave,
My gyro has 8.8M Stella Averso rotors...that's about 29' ±.
I do not relish mountain flying and its hidden dangers and Evergreen has nowhere to land but it's lake or
a highway full of the epitome of Colorado's loco speeding 'yuppie puppy' drivers. If something went south up there, you'd most likely be a tree ornament or worse.
Too much 'tail pipe pucker factor' for me. I prefer the eastern plains where emergency landing spots are plentiful and I
can enjoy watching the baby pronghorn antelope prancing around the grasslands. Guess I'm just spoiled.
Flew the mountains west of Boulder several years ago in a trike and that was enough to send me packing.....the primary
reason I gravitated to gyros.
 
There are a lot of different air movements through and just above the mountains south and west of Boulder. I have been flying through the rocky mountains on nice days when I go up to Idaho and western Wyoming. Once out of the mountains there literally hundreds of miles of nothing… No people or cell service… I bought a Garmin Inreach Mini incase I crash to call for help via sat.

Where is the grass with antelope since I rarely fly east of plate valley since it seems all very flat and barren? Maybe there is more to see?

I live in Evergreen at 8000 ft elevation so I am around 9-10k Msl when flying around my house between mountain peaks. Oh course mt Evan’s at 14k is just west of evergreen and will get turbulence from that mountain top… There are a bunch of open fields which are state parks you can land if flying higher.. Yes you are right about drivers out here since many take their fancy cars and motorcycles out on weekends to drive around the winding roads.

Back to gyros, do you think the 8.6m rotors with 915 would work at these elevations or is the 8.8m rotors required? My 180hp Husky will climb slowly at these elevations, but have been in situations where I wasn’t able to climb due to downdrafts, and had to fly over to sunny side of the mountain. It’s an odd sensation.. I’ve been caught in some really strong crosswinds flying up in Wyoming/Idaho too.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Just to point out that a difference in diameter of 0.2 meters is only a difference of about three inches on each blade (or 1-2% of the total rotor length).
Is there any difference in width/chord between the Averso blades and AutoGyro or Magni blades?
 
Leigh:

Screwed up and emailed the 51% checklist as .pdf, resent this morning as spreadsheet.

Bobby
 
Tyger & Dave,
Averso blades are 8.5" chord. I was unable to see either of the others on their websites. Perhaps owners could chime in.
Yes, the 'minute' difference of a couple of tenths of Meters seems small in inches but one needs to consider altitude/density altitude before moving on. At sea level, Tyger, you are blessed with lots of 'thick' air to cushion you at all times.
Where Dave is flying/living, those extra inches are very significant and as necessary as available power as he described above.
If that sounds trite, I invite you to compare the two by extending an invitation to come fly with us (bring your own oxygen). The difference is startling. Roughly speaking, one needs to add about 1 foot of blade length for every 3K ft. of altitude.
So if Dave's proposed gyro flew at sea level with 26' rotors, he would need 29' rotors where he flies. (based upon the type of gyro he describes).
Dave, before arbitrarily ordering a set of rotors, you will need more detailed information to use the formula to calculate disc loading.
1.2 to 1.5 is the 'normal' range with the lower end being the longer blades. All up weight of the craft (including you) is necessary
to formulate the length. I can post it if you like and you can play with the figures accordingly b4 ordering.
 
Mark:
I appreciate the differences flying at alititude v. sea level. I do remember just a little of my ground school. 🙃
But of course it is not only the length that matters. Jusk ask my wife. 🤭
I believe Dave was considering a used Magni, which has 28ft rotor and a Rotax 914. Magni do not offer a choice of rotor sizes on their machines.
Thanks for the invitation to come flying! A good friend of mine recently moved to Boulder, so I may well be out your way at some point.
 
I could use your help...
I wish to upload all the makes and models 51% Checklists to PRA.org website making it easy to find them all in one place in the future.
Anyone willing please email [email protected].
---
The rest of the story...
Getting a jump on the files required to fulfill a need I see our community requires.

My intent is to create a Builder suite of web pages where it uses the 51% checklist as the main form.
You keep track of your hours and you add the pictures at the same time for your complete builder's log.
Share pictures with the public or not and print out a PDF copy of the 51% checklist filled in with pictures for each line/Task on the form.
This is fairly easy but will have to wait until after the ARGON and I are flying.
I expect to be back to working 20 hours days on adding this and the library by mid or at least the end of November.
 
Tyger - if you do come out to Boulder let me know so you can visit Lisa and I out at Evergreen. We can drive out to visit Mark at Front Range airport. I've stopped by at Front Range several times, but never see anyone there with gyros... Does your friend have any connections at Boulder airport to get me a hanger there? I'm on the waiting list.
 
I'm afraid my friend is not even a pilot, but he was the second guy I took flying, at Muscle Shoals, AL, after I got my PPL :)
 
Dave, (or anyone else who might be interested)
Here are the formulas you will need if you want to determine disc load or tip speed.
(Remember, disc load should normally be 1.1 - 1.5) with the lower number being longer blade length.

DISC LOAD:
1. Radius X Radius...that is 1/2 overall rotor length X itself.
2. ╥ (3.14) X (total of #1 above).
3. now ÷ (divide) all up weight (including pilot & fuel) by total of #2 above.
4. if you fall within the 1.1 to 1.5 area, you are good with 1.1 being a bit over rotored.

TIP SPEED:
1. Disc size (overall blade length) X ╥(3.14).
2. Total of #1 X RRPM (assumes straight/level flight)
3. ÷ (divide) total of #2 by 88 = tip speed/mph.
Hope this helps whomever may need it.

***revised per posts 34/35 below...thanks Tyger***
 
Last edited:
TIP SPEED: ( should be above 400 mph in the 'safe zone')
1. Disc size (overall blade length) X ╥ (3.14).
2. Total of #1 X RRPM (assumes straight/level flight)
3. ÷ (divide) total of #2 by 60 = tip speed in MPH
I don't think I agree with this.
It should be rotor length in feet times pi (giving rotor circumference in feet)
Circumference times rpm gives feet per minute
TIMES 60, gives feet per hour
Divided by 5280 gives miles per hour.

E.g. 28 ft rotor going at 350 rpm (a typical rpm for my rotor)
28 x 3.1416 = 87.96 (circumference)
87.96 x 350 = 30,788 (ft per minute)
30,788 x 60 = 1,847,261 (ft per hour)
1,847,261 / 5280 = 350 (miles per hour)

It just so happens that 28 x pi x 60 = 5278, or just about 5280, so each rpm is about 1 mph at the tip for a rotor of that size.
 
Your formula works if, as the last step, you divide by 88 instead of 60 (5280/60=88)
Just remember, it's the number of keys on a piano! 😊
 
Leigh
Here is the map of our test area.
The Red and Yellow lines delineate our test area.
Notice there are 4 major/actively used airports inside the mode C/ADS-B airspace and 3 others marked restricted airports. Not sure why Nicoles Field and two others are Restricted. We use them all the time.
40HrsTestAreaSmall.jpg
 
Last edited:
Is Nichol's the one just east of Lower Otay Lake that's listed "objectionable" on the TAC?

Circled R airfields are "restricted" in the sense that they are soft-surfaced and/or shorter than 1500 ft, indicating that you might want to think twice about landing there. Usually these are private airports where landing permission is required (in which case it will always also say "(Pvt)" above the airfield name). However not all (Pvt) airfields are "Restricted". An example is 4PN4 (Merritt), which has a very nice 3400ft hard runway with a parallel turf landing area. I was told that one day an ultralight pilot with very little training flew in unannounced, causing a great deal of havoc, after which the owner made the airport strictly private – now one must give details about type of aircraft, pilot certificate, and date & time of arrival before permission will be granted (ask me how I know).
Incidentally, there are two REALLY nice museums right there on the field, but almost everyone arrives to them by car now.

Of course if the owner of a private airport knows you, it's no problem. I am guessing that's the case with the fields you mention, All_In?

Oftentimes municipalities will only allow an airfield to be built/operate if it's for strictly private purposes, as sometimes (I'll say, "usually") the locals don't want a new "public use" airport in their neighborhood. That was the case with 2NK9 (Old Orchard), owned by a flying club.
"As a condition of zoning board approval, Old Orchard Airpark must remain a private, members-only operation. This precludes the Club from extending an open invitation to the general aviation public to fly in for a visit."
 
Last edited:
Good morning Tyger.
Yes, that is Nichol's Field.
Not sure I should post the rest of Nichol's Field story. Don't want to stop anyone from flying.

The truth is it is used for skydivers and there are mostly ultralights without transponders stored in the hangars there. They have been flying out of Nichol's field without transponders for over 15 years. Dave Bacon used to fly his Bensen out of there too.
It is close to the mode C border and those without transponders fly out at pattern altitude and only climb out after they cross the Mode C border and fly mostly in what we at Brown Field call the practice area.
I hate to ask but want to know. Is that legal?
 
It looks to me like it's about ten to twelve nm inside the 30nm radius of KSAN...
I believe there is an exception for aircraft without electrical systems to fly inside "the veil" without ADS-B Out, and that probably applies to some ultralights. But surely the skydiving planes have it, no?
 
Last edited:
Good morning Tyger.
Yes, that is Nichol's Field.
Not sure I should post the rest of Nichol's Field story. Don't want to stop anyone from flying.

The truth is it is used for skydivers and there are mostly ultralights without transponders stored in the hangars there. They have been flying out of Nichol's field without transponders for over 15 years. Dave Bacon used to fly his Bensen out of there too.
It is close to the mode C border and those without transponders fly out at pattern altitude and only climb out after they cross the Mode C border and fly mostly in what we at Brown Field call the practice area.
I hate to ask but want to know. Is that legal?
§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/ A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C–112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100- foot increments. This requirement applies—

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.
 
Top