Dominator Trade

NoWingsAttached

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OK, then I am just stupid AND ignorant. I won't fight back on that. I am not bashing the Dominators. Thought I made that pretty clear. The bad landing came after fuel starvation, not unreliable engine. (Unreliable? um...maybe, but after it being in use for 25 years w/o a failure on this gyro I think that the generalization about this engine type is not one that fits this particular motor.) The pick-up on the seat tank was too far forward, and not in the lowest part of the seat. (I should have changed that, eh? It has since been changed) I had been practicing engine outlandings, I was steeply climbing on take-off, when fuel starved. It was dusk. No shadows on the ground. I picked what looked like a level opening in the trees.

Came down over a 30-ft high pile of wood chips, the LZ was VERY tight! As I approached, I think I may have actually clipped the top of the pile with my left main, and it turned the gyro sideways coming in at proper glide speed - 45 mph. Now I was sideways, doing a 60 degree crab. I was within 10 degrees of getting the crab corrected, and that is when I finally saw the 4-ft berm in front of me. The nose gear didn't clear it. There was never a point when I was ready to flair, I was still too high, and sideways. I know you guys could have dropped it on a dime, sideways, spiralling, or whatever.

And yes, I love the Bee, and yes, it is the classic gyro design, not the tubular. I was not going to get involved in all this "stuff" here, because it is like most everything else here. I psot something, somebody doesn't like it, it gets taken wrong...it leads nowhere, people get irritated with me. But, I read the stuff about bad service from AC, better service from RFD. I have not had those experiences.

I read the stuff about mishaps, and I wanted to write from my experiences, and how they might apply to the seat-on-the keel design, given the same set of landing problems I was dealing with at the time.

You might ask, why did I clip the top of the woodchip pile? I had to steepen the descent to avoid running into the trees. THere really was not much room to put her down at all. Had I not hit the woodchips, and turned the thing sideways, I would have seen the berm in time to adjust for that. But coming in at 45, sideways, 20 feet off the ground - my attention was not on avoiding an unseen bump. And flair over the side of a STEEP mound of rubble - and then what? roll sideways down the rest of the hill? Monday morning quarter backing the situation can't change the problems and the decisions made.

I just am glad it was an Air Command at that instant, not a Bee, or a Bensen, or a KB, or a ...I won't say it. But I will say that the post about thinking someone is crazy for wanting to trade a Dominator for an Air Command is not very good PR for the AC.

Air Commands, when properly updated, are excellent machines in every respect, and your post was an afront to anyone who flies Air Commands. THere are just a few design points on a Dominator that we can pick apart, and when these are pointed out Dominator fans just don't like to be confronted with them. AC had a design problem as well - thrust line. Most us changed that and the result is a fine machine that is easily in the same "class" as the Dominator, and there are some things about the AC that are more desireable, whether you like what I say, or how lousy I am with my piloting skills or whatever.

And the fact is, the bottom line - the design of the front (including the nose gear) is more robust on an AC than on a Dominator. This is NOT to say the Dominator design is inadequate. I wouldn't know, personally, and I would not say that. And at twice the money for a comparable machine, it will be a long, long, long time before I ever find out for myself. Show me flying Dominator Tandem for sale for $13,000, and maybe I can consider it. But for now, my money is better spent on the Bee and the AC-T. I don't see me selling either one for quite a while.
 
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NoWingsAttached

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Automan1223: Your fallacious argument of personal incredulity and "argumentum ad populum" pleas magnify you poor reasoning.
Ummmm...I am not that smart. Someone tell me what fallacious means? Is that what they do in those naughty videos?
 

GyroRon

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OK, then I am just stupid AND ignorant. I won't fight back on that. I am not bashing the Dominators. Thought I made that pretty clear. The bad landing came after fuel starvation, not unreliable engine. (Unreliable? um...maybe, but after it being in use for 25 years w/o a failure on this gyro I think that the generalization about this engine type is not one that fits this particular motor.) The pick-up on the seat tank was too far forward, and not in the lowest part of the seat. (I should have changed that, eh? It has since been changed) I had been practicing engine outlandings, I was steeply climbing on take-off, when fuel starved. It was dusk. No shadows on the ground. I picked what looked like a level opening in the trees.

Came down over a 30-ft high pile of wood chips, the LZ was VERY tight! As I approached, I think I may have actually clipped the top of the pile with my left main, and it turned the gyro sideways coming in at proper glide speed - 45 mph. Now I was sideways, doing a 60 degree crab. I was within 10 degrees of getting the crab corrected, and that is when I finally saw the 4-ft berm in front of me. The nose gear didn't clear it. There was never a point when I was ready to flair, I was still too high, and sideways. I know you guys could have dropped it on a dime, sideways, spiralling, or whatever.

And yes, I love the Bee, and yes, it is the classic gyro design, not the tubular. I was not going to get involved in all this "stuff" here, because it is like most everything else here. I psot something, somebody doesn't like it, it gets taken wrong...it leads nowhere, people get irritated with me. But, I read the stuff about bad service from AC, better service from RFD. I have not had those experiences.

I read the stuff about mishaps, and I wanted to write from my experiences, and how they might apply to the seat-on-the keel design, given the same set of landing problems I was dealing with at the time.

You might ask, why did I clip the top of the woodchip pile? I had to steepen the descent to avoid running into the trees. THere really was not much room to put her down at all. Had I not hit the woodchips, and turned the thing sideways, I would have seen the berm in time to adjust for that. But coming in at 45, sideways, 20 feet off the ground - my attention was not on avoiding an unseen bump. And flair over the side of a STEEP mound of rubble - and then what? roll sideways down the rest of the hill? Monday morning quarter backing the situation can't change the problems and the decisions made.

I just am glad it was an Air Command at that instant, not a Bee, or a Bensen, or a KB, or a ...I won't say it. But I will say that the post about thinking someone is crazy for wanting to trade a Dominator for an Air Command is not very good PR for the AC.

Air Commands, when properly updated, are excellent machines in every respect, and your post was an afront to anyone who flies Air Commands. THere are just a few design points on a Dominator that we can pick apart, and when these are pointed out Dominator fans just don't like to be confronted with them. AC had a design problem as well - thrust line. Most us changed that and the result is a fine machine that is easily in the same "class" as the Dominator, and there are some things about the AC that are more desireable, whether you like what I say, or how lousy I am with my piloting skills or whatever.

And the fact is, the bottom line - the design of the front (including the nose gear) is more robust on an AC than on a Dominator. This is NOT to say the Dominator design is inadequate. I wouldn't know, personally, and I would not say that. And at twice the money for a comparable machine, it will be a long, long, long time before I ever find out for myself. Show me flying Dominator Tandem for sale for $13,000, and maybe I can consider it. But for now, my money is better spent on the Bee and the AC-T. I don't see me selling either one for quite a while.

Didn't you buy your gyro from " Gyro " here on the forum? The minigun man??? I am pretty sure I have a video on my computer of his old aircommand tandem with Arrow engine having a emergency landing due to the redrive failing. Redrive.... Engine.... same thing.

Is a Dominator perfect? Absolutely not. The design is a good design, but there is tons of stuff that could be done better on them. Same with a aircommand. If we wanted to, we could pick apart each and any and every machine....
 

automan1223

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Bhwaaahhh

Bhwaaahhh

Submit an opinion that ends up offending owners of certain machines and its worse than throwing toys away in front of little children !

Ron, flop over ? nosed over ? No you did not trash your gyro it was fine....

you waited to drive your gyro into your hanger with the rotor blades turning to do that......

Everyone stop bellyaching about this nonsense. Friggin bunch of babies !

The Dominator is a well built machine, I would own one, I would fly one.

In fact I believe in them so much I told my good friend Robert K to go buy one and HE DID. HE ALSO PUT OVER 30K IN RFD's hands. So if you think I have an ax to grind you have me all wrong. Go put 30 grand in someones hands you can have a constructive opinion about the product.

Doms are very crash worthy if you need to. Ernie will support your gyro anytime you need parts and will freely give you his vast experience and knowledge along with the cost of a phone call.

J
 

NoWingsAttached

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yeah, well...blogging is just that. cry baby, perhaps, but it is just blogging after all. No one is getting upset (I hope) from just some thoughts and posts. Just letting it all hang out, right? No harm, no foul. Elbows and a$$#[email protected]$ - everyone gots 'em. Some of us just didn't agree that it was so far fetched and crazy to sell a Dominator to buy an Air Command. Ron thought it was pretty crazy, so we started posting our own points-of-view. We all have legitimate claims here I believe. No one is throwing turdballs, no nasti stuff from the posts. We all see things from a different point of view, better to share what we see and find out what it means to someone one else, rather than to just bottle up and never learn from each other. This is one of the primary reasons the RF is a great place to be a gyro guy. We are a small community, we need each other for our personal survival and the support of the entire gyro sport. I much prefer today's conclusion of this thread to the initlial post that was a reaction that pretty much put down Air Commands - which some of thought was a bit much. i wasn't paying much attention to the guy who started this thread b4, but after reading through some of this stuff it seems he has been a bit hard to get along with at times on RF. Maybe some of the reactionary posting was due to previous irritaions unrelated to the meat and potatoes of what this thread started out positing.

So anyway, I think we all kinda see things the same way at this point in the conversation, and we can pretty much put this one to bed.

Looks like I'll see everyone at the next fly-in :)

BTW: RON - The redrive clutch chain skipped and slipped on the Air Command due to the extremely cold weather. This is a unit that was used in a 250 hp Chevy automobile transmission, to push a 3,600 lb Detroit lead sled around at 120 mph. I'm sure it withstands the load of a 100 hp engine pushing a 1000 lb gyro up into the air if it is maintained and used properly.

The oil in the redrive was too thick for the temperatures, and it had not had a chance to properly warm up to allow the clutch to work properly. When Paul lost thrust, the engine revved, and only made matters worse. Had he had enough ground clearance and time to throttle down, let the drive catch, then bring it back up to speed, it probably would have engaged and worked OK to get him back down without any trouble. Pure speculation on my part, but not impossible by any stretch. It certainly sounds reasonable to me.

I have used heavy gear lubes on Fiber Optic cable pullers in the winter, and the big three-phase 240v motors won't even turn the right-angle drive units unless pre-heated with a salamander heater first. You just can't run the same chain lube at 60F that you run at 2F. It won't work on this device. Paul made a bit of a mechanical mistake. You know, some of us do that at times, especially when all the information is not at our fingertips. Completely understandable, as this was perhap the first time Paul, or anyone, had tried flying a fully-loaded unit at these temps. Hey, it worked on the ground, who knew it would fail a couple of hundred feet up? We know what to do to avoid this problem in the future...although I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to fly when it gets below 52F, let alone 22F as in Paul's case.

ALL:
Please take a moment to enlarge this photo I snapped this morning outside of my hanger. Take a good look. Take another good look. Take a L-O-O-O-O-N-G look. If you are still thinking about gyrocopters, I beg you to give me ONE good reason to NOT sell a Dominator to buy an Air Command. (hee hee, treachery and old age will always win over youth and vigor.)
 

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All_In

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...

ALL:
Please take a moment to enlarge this photo I snapped this morning outside of my hanger. Take a good look. Take another good look. Take a L-O-O-O-O-N-G look. If you are still thinking about gyrocopters, I beg you to give me ONE good reason to NOT sell a Dominator to buy an Air Command. (hee hee, treachery and old age will always win over youth and vigor.)
What gyro? There was only a picture of a beautiful woman?
 

scottessex

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Greg, the Arrow uses a sprag clutch, no chain, just sprags.
It is the same one GM used in the 1958 Buick dynaflush.
You are supposed to use ATF lube in there.
Very similar to this one.
 

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GyroRon

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Submit an opinion that ends up offending owners of certain machines and its worse than throwing toys away in front of little children !

Ron, flop over ? nosed over ? No you did not trash your gyro it was fine....

you waited to drive your gyro into your hanger with the rotor blades turning to do that......

Everyone stop bellyaching about this nonsense. Friggin bunch of babies !

The Dominator is a well built machine, I would own one, I would fly one.

In fact I believe in them so much I told my good friend Robert K to go buy one and HE DID. HE ALSO PUT OVER 30K IN RFD's hands. So if you think I have an ax to grind you have me all wrong. Go put 30 grand in someones hands you can have a constructive opinion about the product.

Doms are very crash worthy if you need to. Ernie will support your gyro anytime you need parts and will freely give you his vast experience and knowledge along with the cost of a phone call.

J
It didn't flop over... it didn't nose over either. It came to a sudden stop.... it stayed on all three wheels. Why is that so hard to understand?

You want to pick apart the dominator design go for it, but speaking only for myself, if I disagree with something you said I will counter it.

I do agree, there are many things about a dominator that could be improved upon. There isn't anything stopping you or me or anyone else from making these improvements and making a " better " or " Safer " gyro and bringing it to market.
 

GyroRon

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yeah, well...blogging is just that. cry baby, perhaps, but it is just blogging after all. No one is getting upset (I hope) from just some thoughts and posts. Just letting it all hang out, right? No harm, no foul. Elbows and a$$#[email protected]$ - everyone gots 'em. Some of us just didn't agree that it was so far fetched and crazy to sell a Dominator to buy an Air Command. Ron thought it was pretty crazy, so we started posting our own points-of-view. We all have legitimate claims here I believe. No one is throwing turdballs, no nasti stuff from the posts. We all see things from a different point of view, better to share what we see and find out what it means to someone one else, rather than to just bottle up and never learn from each other. This is one of the primary reasons the RF is a great place to be a gyro guy. We are a small community, we need each other for our personal survival and the support of the entire gyro sport. I much prefer today's conclusion of this thread to the initlial post that was a reaction that pretty much put down Air Commands - which some of thought was a bit much. i wasn't paying much attention to the guy who started this thread b4, but after reading through some of this stuff it seems he has been a bit hard to get along with at times on RF. Maybe some of the reactionary posting was due to previous irritaions unrelated to the meat and potatoes of what this thread started out positing.

So anyway, I think we all kinda see things the same way at this point in the conversation, and we can pretty much put this one to bed.

Looks like I'll see everyone at the next fly-in :)

BTW: RON - The redrive clutch chain skipped and slipped on the Air Command due to the extremely cold weather. This is a unit that was used in a 250 hp Chevy automobile transmission, to push a 3,600 lb Detroit lead sled around at 120 mph. I'm sure it withstands the load of a 100 hp engine pushing a 1000 lb gyro up into the air if it is maintained and used properly.

The oil in the redrive was too thick for the temperatures, and it had not had a chance to properly warm up to allow the clutch to work properly. When Paul lost thrust, the engine revved, and only made matters worse. Had he had enough ground clearance and time to throttle down, let the drive catch, then bring it back up to speed, it probably would have engaged and worked OK to get him back down without any trouble. Pure speculation on my part, but not impossible by any stretch. It certainly sounds reasonable to me.

I have used heavy gear lubes on Fiber Optic cable pullers in the winter, and the big three-phase 240v motors won't even turn the right-angle drive units unless pre-heated with a salamander heater first. You just can't run the same chain lube at 60F that you run at 2F. It won't work on this device. Paul made a bit of a mechanical mistake. You know, some of us do that at times, especially when all the information is not at our fingertips. Completely understandable, as this was perhap the first time Paul, or anyone, had tried flying a fully-loaded unit at these temps. Hey, it worked on the ground, who knew it would fail a couple of hundred feet up? We know what to do to avoid this problem in the future...although I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to fly when it gets below 52F, let alone 22F as in Paul's case.

ALL:
Please take a moment to enlarge this photo I snapped this morning outside of my hanger. Take a good look. Take another good look. Take a L-O-O-O-O-N-G look. If you are still thinking about gyrocopters, I beg you to give me ONE good reason to NOT sell a Dominator to buy an Air Command. (hee hee, treachery and old age will always win over youth and vigor.)
Greg, first off, I don't think it is crazy at all to trade a Dominator for a aircommand. Both in my opinion are first class gyros. My original comments in this post was to point out that the seller is the same guy ( who posted under a different user name here ) who was thick into the RAF arguements and made several statements to the effect that a stabless stock RAF was just as easy and safe to fly as any other gyro out there. Anyone who understands much of anything mechanical and who has some seat time in several different gyros would know that is a false statement. Of course he got pissy at me for my comments, but I didn't make fun of the guy or call him names or make stuff up like Automan..... I simply stated the obvious and it was my observation that the seller may not know just how nice of a gyro he has, and that may explain part of the reason why he wants to get rid of it.


Secondly, Thanks for the explaination of why the redrive failed. Good to know..... I only brought that up to counter something you mentioned about 20 someodd years of trouble free flying. Also as hard as that gyro landed, personally I would not have given any more for it than you did either. In other words, the " Crash " might have explained why you were able to get a tandem aircommand for about half of what a tandem dominator would have cost.

I am mad at no one, and have no ill feelings towards anyone here. This is just the soap opera that is the Rotary Wing Forum. :)
 

Passin' Thru

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Greg, the Arrow uses a sprag clutch, no chain, just sprags.
It is the same one GM used in the 1958 Buick dynaflush.
You are supposed to use ATF lube in there.
Very similar to this one.
Greg; if you're going to fly that thing, you need to take note of this! It's the gospel!
 

Timchick

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.............I do agree, there are many things about a dominator that could be improved upon. There isn't anything stopping you or me or anyone else from making these improvements and making a " better " or " Safer " gyro and bringing it to market.
What gets me is both Automan and Greg have modified their gyros from stock form. Neither one has a stock Air Command setup on their front ends so how can they complain about a Dominator's stock setup?
 

NoWingsAttached

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Tim

Tim

:boink:

I give up. How?
 
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gyronut

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Xxx

Xxx

Greg, first off, I don't think it is crazy at all to trade a Dominator for a aircommand. Both in my opinion are first class gyros. My original comments in this post was to point out that the seller is the same guy ( who posted under a different user name here ) who was thick into the RAF arguements and made several statements to the effect that a stabless stock RAF was just as easy and safe to fly as any other gyro out there. Anyone who understands much of anything mechanical and who has some seat time in several different gyros would know that is a false statement. Of course he got pissy at me for my comments, but I didn't make fun of the guy or call him names or make stuff up like Automan..... I simply stated the obvious and it was my observation that the seller may not know just how nice of a gyro he has, and that may explain part of the reason why he wants to get rid of it.


Secondly, Thanks for the explaination of why the redrive failed. Good to know..... I only brought that up to counter something you mentioned about 20 someodd years of trouble free flying. Also as hard as that gyro landed, personally I would not have given any more for it than you did either. In other words, the " Crash " might have explained why you were able to get a tandem aircommand for about half of what a tandem dominator would have cost.

I am mad at no one, and have no ill feelings towards anyone here. This is just the soap opera that is the Rotary Wing Forum. :)
Gyroron--first it is true I re-registered a second time with a new name---only because I was blocked from the site because I stated that FAA reports showed causes for RAF crashes other than the machine itself---Again I think you need more training to fly NCLT machines and that CLT is more forgiving . Never told anyone what to fly!!!Can not believe this thread which started as a trade for one gyro for another turned into this--But it shows the mindset and attitude of you same" know it all people" who like to turn this forum into a circus.
What happened to the guys like Doug O Conner and others who tried to further the sport rather than tear it apart!--Joe 936-855-2285
 

NoWingsAttached

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I never took the SPRAG housing apart, Scott, so that is the first time I have seen a photo of it! Cool. I actually thought from the drawings I have seen of it that it was a chain-link circle, not a solid ring with the cam rollers.

I am certain it got used on more than just the Buick, I was told by a mechanic who worked on old GM trans missions that he recognized it from a late 50's early 60's Chevy set-up. That was the info I was working from. But if/when I ever need replacement, at least I can quote this model/year for it, Thanks!!

For some reason I seem to recollect a story that the wrong oil had found its way into the clutch housing...and I recall Paul telling me emPHATically at purchase to use ATF in it. I have not changed it since I purchased it. Seems to work fine. I don't mind it, kinda like the fact that I can tell if the motor kicks and starts/runs backwards. The prop aint turnin when that happens.
 
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barnstorm2

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Barnstorm2---I never declared anything about the fatalites-just quoted Faa results!!!!(check with them if their findings make you unhappy!!!)
Joe, you said..
---Facts scare them to death-it destroys all their arguments!!!

99.9999% of all gyro crashes in all types are caused by the hand on the stick---Joe
That is not true. The NTSB reports have more reported causes of gyro accidents then "hand on stick" which I assume is your version of pilot error, which BTW is used under several cause categories.

Althought I consider myself fairly new to Gyros I have been involved for several years--traveled 5000 miles and spent over $10000 dollars for training in different types of gyros(had great instructors)-have owned 6 different gyros including building a RAF and Air Command-have owned over 50 different aircraft(nothing special)-have several 100 hrs in fixed wing-and a couple of 100 in gyros---own two hangars at two different airports(live on one)
Joe, you have over COUPLE of 100 hours, spent over 10 grand on training and have no cert and as far as mentioned not even a solo sign-off?

You are listing your hangar ownership as having some bearing in gyro experience?

Your profile lists your experience as :
Biography
I am interested in Gyrocopters . I have read a little about the Honey Bee


and you take issue with me for simply quoting it?

Gyroron--first it is true I re-registered a second time with a new name---only because I was blocked from the site

But it shows the mindset and attitude of you same" know it all people" who like to turn this forum into a circus.
Joe..

So.. People that are certificated pilots with enormous amounts of time and experience building, test flying, piloting, improving, assisting other pilots and builders and gads of other important qualifications, certifications and years of work in the community are in your words..

" know it all people" who like to turn this forum into a circus.. (with an attitude no less)

Yet you, who have been banned from this site under a different user-name for misconduct, seem unable to get a pilots license, can't get your facts straight on what you have even said about the FAA accident data and JUST STARTED A THREAD BECAUSE YOU GAVE UP ON A DOMINATOR BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT FIGGURE OUT HOW TO TRACK THE BLADES.

Yet, you feel free to give potentially life threatening advise about stabless gyroplanes in posts!

Just what reasons exactly would you give for following your sage advise over the "know it all people" here?

.
 

Timchick

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:boink:

I give up. How?
Have you ever seen a stock CLT tandem Air Command? Your CLT mod is missing parts that are normally on a factory kit. You also added a support piece down to the back of your front forks which isn't on a stock setup. The factory now uses a post setup similar to a Dominator instead of the raked forks like yours has. Not sure why you guys are dogging the Dominator's front wheel setup when Air Commands is very similar.

PS. I think both the Air Commands and Dominators are good gyros.
 
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NoWingsAttached

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Tim C

You are my hero. Of course, so is Chris, Ron, Tim Chick, Scott, Steve M, Chris, Stan, etc., etc., etc...Hope you don't mind the crowd gathering....
 
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