Dominator Single vs. Air Command Single

[Txgyropilot]

May want to check to see if Air Command will still be there when you get there. I've heard they may not but this may not be true.

Can you confirm this rumor, where it started, what is it based upon, etc.?

 

[Txgyropilot]

If crash survivability is one of your primary considerations, I'd really recommend taking a look at the Monarch Butterfly...(www.thebutterflyllc.com) You can literally drop these machines straight down from nearly any height. (Ask Tim Verroi!)

I know you hadn't mentioned the Monarch being a candidate machine, but they are very stable and the landing gear is the best there is. You might ought to consider it.

I have it on my list and will keep my options open after seeing all three up close and in the air. It's primary disadvantages are cost and build time. I like the landing system and the factory location in Texas would allow me to go and pick it up, saving on shipping costs.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[scottessex]

If you get proper training, crashing should not be an issue. I like the Monarch gear, very innovative indeed, but all that extra weight and drag does nothing for you when you are in flight other than add weight and reduce performance.
You could also drive to Florida and pick up a Dominator.

I have had several engine out events in my dominator, (because of R&D with an experimental engine.) The gyro has never been damaged or landed hard.

Part of this is the mentality of "don't fly over anything you cannot land on" if you must, make sure that you have plenty of altitude. You do not have to land a gyro like a fixed wing aircraft.

But it is your decision, and your money, so do what makes you happy.

 

[Vance]

Crash Survivability?

Crash Survivability?

If crash survivability is one of your primary considerations, I'd really recommend taking a look at the Monarch Butterfly...(www.thebutterflyllc.com) You can literally drop these machines straight down from nearly any height. (Ask Tim Verroi!)
QUOTE]

Hello John,

How does the Monarch landing gear enhance “crash survivability”?

Thank you, Vance

 

[GyroRon]

The idea of this thread, is a dominator better than a aircommand, or which one is better, whatever..... It's really silly to be to the point.

Why?

Because this is like saying which is better, the new 2012 Camero or the 2012 Mustang. Both cars as so simular, that the differences are in miliseconds or a few feet in braking distance performance wise, and the other differences are in looks and feel...

Same thing with gyros.

Most gyros all fly about the same. There is just minor differences in how one gyro " Feels" over another. And of course looks.

Everyone has their favorite.

Any dominator owner is gonna says their gyro is the best.... same with any aircommand owner. And you will have guys like Monarchist who is building a monarch come into the conversation and say the monarch is a strong option to consider too.... It is no different that asking a Camero owner which is better, the camero or the mustang.

The differences between a aircommand, a Dominator, a Monarch, and many others are minor differences. They are all 3 good machines. Each machine will have some high points the others may not have..... Such as Monarchs having the G force landing gear, or Dominators having alot of Steel in it's construction, or Aircommands typically coming from the factory with a nice durable finish on all the parts.

I have flown all 3 of these gyros and they all flew good. I prefer the dominator myself because as a package I feel it is best. The Dominator has long throws to the controls..... it makes the controls lighter and yet less sensitive. Dominators come standard with very good pre rotators. Dominators suspension is true suspension that offers a smooth ride over even fairly rough surfaces, yet unlike the Monarchs G force gear, it doesn't take special training or practice to learn how to use it. The Dominators nose gear is the smoothest nose gear on the market. Not sure why people think that is a weak point.... It is more important to giving a smooth ride than the main gear. In flight the dominator has the best handling, and to me feels very stable..... The Dominator from what I know is the CHEAPEST priced gyro of the 3, and the " factory " will work with you to make sure you buy it the way you want it... In other words you can buy it in any stage from plans and raw materials, to a kit, to a rolling airframe, to built and painted and test flown. They also have no problem going with a custom engine installation or other customer requested changes pending the changes are safe.

There is nothing wrong with a aircommand or a monarch though. If you choose any of the 3 your going to get a good premium gyro.

 

[GyroRon]

If crash survivability is one of your primary considerations, I'd really recommend taking a look at the Monarch Butterfly...(www.thebutterflyllc.com) You can literally drop these machines straight down from nearly any height. (Ask Tim Verroi!)
QUOTE]

Hello John,

How does the Monarch landing gear enhance “crash survivability”?

Thank you, Vance

It doesn't....

the only situation where the G force gear would be a advantage over even rigid gear, is a stop and drop landing. And you can only stop and drop land a G force gear gyro from a relatively low altitude.

If there is room to approach and flare for a normal landing in a emergency situation, the type of landing gear should make no difference.

If there isn't room to approach and flare normally ( Say your over a wooded area and the only clearing within your glide path is too small to safely land normally in ) you could flare high and drop into the " hole " vertically. Over a certain height even G force gear will buckle and fail.

A good pilot makes sure he or she is always has something land-able under them and within their glide path. And with practice, you would be surprised at how small of a area you can safely land a conventional gear gyro into.

 

[Txgyropilot]

I have had several engine out events in my dominator, (because of R&D with an experimental engine.) The gyro has never been damaged or landed hard.

Part of this is the mentality of "don't fly over anything you cannot land on" if you must, make sure that you have plenty of altitude. You do not have to land a gyro like a fixed wing aircraft.

Thanks, Scott, that is the same mentality I was taught while learning to fly ultralight FW and is why my 4 engine outs were really non-events. The first one was my 3rd solo flight in my single place Quicksilver and the only reason I had a bad landing, was a single cedar post in the middle of the field I chose to land in that I could not see. Once I saw it, I veered left to miss it and wound up nosing into a terrace, with very minor damage to one support tube.

 

[GyroRon]

Ron, sorry but I totally disagree with you. You don't need to have ANY KIND of ENGINEERING knowledge to understand that a triangulated forward frame DOES offer better crash protection.
If you have flown almost all of the gyros on the market, and flown a ton of one offs as you say then you should know that the best gyros in the market are the ones that offer both flt safety and crash protection.
Just few weeks ago I was watching a video clip on youtube with a Aircommand
spinning all the way to the ground and with full throttle the gyro accelerated again 60 mph to the ditch, left of the runway,overturnng few times. I don't have the slightest doubt that the constraction of the body of the gyro saved pilot's life. (Maybe somebody has the link?)
Foto below, does it say anything? Triangular construction/ strength?

Your whole arguement is simply splitting hairs. Aircommands triangulation comes from a bunch of tubes held together with U brackets and bolts under tension. As doug said, the way the tubing is held together it isn't nearly as strong as it's general shape would suggest.

You post a engine mount made of welded steel..... Would you build the same engine mount using aluminum tubes held together with U brackets? I hope not.

I have seen wrecked aircommands and wrecked dominators, I have not seen one where the front keel broke apart or folded up on either brand gyro.

And lets set the facts straight...... bottom line is if your truely concerned with safety, you should be looking at a tractor gyro, not a pusher. A tractor gyro with a full enclosed structure, such as a Little Wing is by far and away WAY SAFER than any typical pusher gyro out there.

 

[Vance]

No Nonsense!

No Nonsense!

It doesn't....

Thank you Ron, I always enjoy your no nonsense style.

John must have had something in mind when he said; “if crash survivability is one of your primary considerations then consider a Monarch.”

John is a very thoughtful fellow so I was wondering how specifically he felt the Monarch landing gear enhanced survivability.

Thank you, Vance

 

[scottessex]

Here is an example of the basic butterfly with out all the extras.
http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/forsale/docs/forsale_SNB201.pdf

 

[Txgyropilot]

I am too heavy for a 503 in a gyro

I am too heavy for a 503 in a gyro

Here is an example of the basic butterfly with out all the extras.
http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/forsale/docs/forsale_SNB201.pdf

I really need a 582.

 

[scottessex]

The dominator ultrawhite, with a 582 upgrade would be the ticket..It will come in around 330lbs. If you are a really Big guy, have Ernie build/send you the kit, with a 68" prop and tail....and 24ft rotors instead of the 23's.

 

[Aviomania]

Ron.. read Dug's post again!!!!!

A correctly designed triangulation with bolts in double shear and bolts / U brackets sized correctly give a MUCH better crash worthies than ANY single keel frame.

Yes the optimum protection is 4130 welded frame with engine in the front (not for stability but because you do not have that weight behind you). But a tractor is not as fun!!!!!

I do not like to normally participate in such debates because i am a manufacturer.... but some thing need to set straight!!!!!
Please do not try to minimize the importance of crash-worthiness of any design for any reason..... Just state the facts.....

As i said before this was a debate of Aircomand vs Dominator..... and as you, i also prefer the dominator between the 2..... but the reality is that the triangulated frame is far superior...... the comment was for that point!!!

 

[WaspAir]

What the discussions of crashworthiness always seem to lack is any solid specification of the type of crash or the likelihood of such a crash. For cars, they test separately for head on into a barrier, offset into a barrier, side impact, rear impact, several different speeds, etc., and they have a pretty good handle on the prevalence of each type of impact in the accident statistics.

I've never seen stats like that for gyros. The number of possible accidents (angle of impact, direction of motion, speed, etc.), is very, very large, and the available data is minimal. Features that might be useful in a low speed directly-forward impact may be worthless in a roll-over or at high speed or in a glancing impact or in a subsequent tumble or two.

Open gyros cannot be expected to provide a great deal of protection in general because there just isn't much structure there. My advice: buy a really, really good helmet and a nomex flight suit and gloves.

 

[GyroRon]

Nic, I know what Doug is saying because he has said it many times..... the way MOST gyros that are triangulated, is through tubes held together with U brackets and 1/4 inch bolts. Doing it this way is not the proper way to do it. Is it better than not having triangulation????? I don't know. It personally would be of little to no concern to me. I have seen non triangulated gyros nose over and do forward flip overs with no breakage of the keel, so I don't see where additional strength is required. We all know that if any gyro were to crash in from altitude with much speed or velocity, it doesn't matter how it's built.... the people on board are likely gonna die.

If you want to be " safe " and are worried about your gyro having structure to protect you, perhaps this would be more suitable? http://www.honeybeeg2.com/

 

[perbgyro]

Air Command

Air Command

Can you confirm this rumor, where it started, what is it based upon, etc.?

There is no truth to the rumor. Air Command is still in business. I'm in the process of getting parts from them for some changes that I'm doing on my AC.

 

[GyroRon]

What the discussions of crashworthiness always seem to lack is any solid specification of the type of crash or the likelihood of such a crash. For cars, they test separately for head on into a barrier, offset into a barrier, side impact, rear impact, several different speeds, etc., and they have a pretty good handle on the prevalence of each type of impact in the accident statistics.

I've never seen stats like that for gyros. The number of possible accidents (angle of impact, direction of motion, speed, etc.), is very, very large, and the available data is minimal. Features that might be useful in a low speed directly-forward impact may be worthless in a roll-over or at high speed or in a glancing impact or in a subsequent tumble or two.

Open gyros cannot be expected to provide a great deal of protection in general because there just isn't much structure there. My advice: buy a really, really good helmet and a nomex flight suit and gloves.

I agree. I would be more concerned with how many kits are out there flying, and for how many years.... and be more concerned with, was the gyro built to proper standards with good materials and hardware than anything else....

And not knocking the Gensis gyro, it appears to be a well built kit, but I keep thinking of all these fancy euro gyros that seem to be having problems and fatal accidents... they all look great, but they are having issues with blades and masts and airframe cracks, stability issues, etc....

One thing Dominators and Aircommands have going for them, is both have been on the market for close to if not over 30 years... so you have a well proven track history of what your getting yourself into

 

[perbgyro]

One thing Dominators and Aircommands have going for them, is both have been on the market for close to if not over 30 years... so you have a well proven track history of what your getting yourself into

HEADING off the temptation :drama: for those who like to rat hole on the track record HTL ACs, please see other threads. AC CLT design flaws have been already noted in this thread.

Dominators have been CLT since the beginning.

 

[Aviomania]

What the discussions of crashworthiness always seem to lack is any solid specification ................................

What about 9G crash with 1.5 safety factor (European regulations).... and i take it one step further..... what good is if the engine at the back and the safety harness will sustain a 9G crush if the nose will collapse.... so i take this 9G x 1.5 from the nose as well. (not in the regulations)

 

[GyroDoug]

It doesn't....

the only situation where the G force gear would be a advantage over even rigid gear, is a stop and drop landing. And you can only stop and drop land a G force gear gyro from a relatively low altitude.

If there is room to approach and flare for a normal landing in a emergency situation, the type of landing gear should make no difference.

If there isn't room to approach and flare normally ( Say your over a wooded area and the only clearing within your glide path is too small to safely land normally in ) you could flare high and drop into the " hole " vertically. Over a certain height even G force gear will buckle and fail.

A good pilot makes sure he or she is always has something land-able under them and within their glide path. And with practice, you would be surprised at how small of a area you can safely land a conventional gear gyro into.

Ron,

I am going to respectfully disagree with you too. I have no intention of getting into an argument with you and anyone who knows either of us knows you prefer Dominators and I prefer Butterfly Gyros and we are both free to prefer anything we like. However when you make a statement like ;

"the only situation where the G force gear would be a advantage over even rigid gear, is a stop and drop landing. And you can only stop and drop land a G force gear gyro from a relatively low altitude.

If there is room to approach and flare for a normal landing in a emergency situation, the type of landing gear should make no difference. "

I simply want to state an oposing and different opinion, so that others reading this post can have both sides of the arguement. I constantly hear statements from Pilots who already know how to fly, that "if you land the Gyro right, there is no need for the G-Force Landing Gear and that it is simply an unnecessary gimick that has no real value". I don't believe this statement is totally accurate. While people have been landing Gyros for decades without a force absorbing landing gear system, and "if it is done right", you really don't need anything fancy (is a mostly accurate statement), the value of having G-Force landing Gear comes into play most when everything "doesn't go right". (kind of like the subject currently being discussed about the level of safelty in a crash between these two designs. If a pilot flares too high, whether because of low skill level, or a gust of wind hit him, or he just has a bad day) and he baloons up and then drops it back down (again I know this is not the right way to handle that situation, but we are talking about when things don't go the way they should have), the G-Force landing gear can make this situation a "Non-Event". Where otherwise it could result in a bent frame or axle, or in severe cases, a tip over with lots of machine damage and occasionally even pilot damage. I think that qualifies as a pretty major advantage and a large safety factor.

As for your contention that the G-Force Landing Gear can not do a stop and drop landing from very high, that is simply not accurate. Larry has repeatedly demonstrated this maneuver from over 30 feet high, with no damage to the machine at all. Try that in any other Gyro or fixed wing plane and you will be looking at a very badly damaged (if not totalled) machine. In his landing video he also shows an engine out landing from hundreds of feet high on a very steep glide path with about 17 mph forward speed. He calls this his helicopter style approach and he doesn't even flare at the end and it sets down as light as a feather. If you ever have to put the machine down in a small area (for what ever the reason, engine out or otherwise) I believe this is a huge advantage.

People are generally into what ever they decide to be into, and tyrpically try to justify why they are not into things they aren't into. I understand why a Gyro owner who doesn't have the advantages of G-Force Landing Gear would tend to minimize the importance or value of having it, because they don't have it and few people are anxious to admit that "what they have" isn't the best choice available. But the truth is the G-Force Landing Gear has several advantages over a conventional system and it adds capabilities and a huge safety factor, if things don't go the way they should have.

When Larry first came out with his G-Force system, people looked at it and said things like, "well he may be able to do those spectacular landings but it is eventaully going to damage his landing gear and cause him problems". But that has not turned out to be the case. The Butterfly G-Force Landing Gear has been proven over years to be capable and built to handle forces that would criple other Gyros. Being able to land softly (like you are landing on a Giant Marshmellow), sure sounds like a huge safety advantage to me. (both to the machine and "especially" to the Pilot)

Remember, we are not talking about whether a skilled pilot should be able to land a Gyro softly and correctly every time. We are talking about if things go wrong and what should have happened, doesn't happen. In that emergency situation, is there an extra level of safety to protect the machine and pilot? or do they just crash land and see how things come out? I think that added level of safety is worth having, and needs to be recognized for what it is.

Here is a link to the video showing what the G-Force landing Gear can do.

http://youtu.be/ajM3yOojPbg