Did anyone report Jim Logan's death back on December 20, 2019?

All_In

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Jeniffer Gillmore just Facebooks message me asking if Jim Logan passed away.
Checked PRA records for address and yes it appears we have lost another rotorhead.
D "jim" N Logan
 

All_In

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I received my first hour of instruction from Jim.
He will be missed, but he really lived life to the fullest flying his RAF.
 

All_In

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No, we stayed around Mentone. You just want to start a fight with Vance, don't you?

It was Micheal Burton on my 4th hour of instruction who has built 20 times the gyro's Vance has. And I bet has 20 times Vance's hours all flying them exactly like I flew FWs. Heaven forbid we even flew part of the way back at NIGHT.

Micheal had to go a Fly-in, displaying the Cavalon for his dealership.
We flew from Spanish Fork to Boise Idio. Salt Lake center vectors us directly across Salt Lake. It was more than the 30 miles to Catalina and we flew the same route back to Spanish Fork. I have inflatable life vests and would have brought them had I known. It was my first flying over that much water without my vest.
The next day we flew for 2.5 hours up and back down the Snake River in a flight of 3 with Camie Patch another CFI who flies them like I fly FW and a new pilot Kent Goddard. We would have all been swimming if all 3 engines were not dependable.
DSC_0342.JPGDSC_0724.jpg
DSC_0328.JPG

When I posted a much more descriptive version of my greatest gyro adventure with these and about 40 other photos many even lower Vance did not jump on them. What does that tell you?
Michael, Henry, and Camie by demonstration prove they all share a 180-degree different opinion and experience from Vance regarding modern Rotax engines installed by them and they do fly them as I fly FWs.

This is what Micheal taught me and what I've been sharing with the public:
You can mitigate the modern experimental gyroplane by paying for training, best maintenance, extra practice, best pre-flights, preparation, and factory assistance, or by paying for an expert Rotax A&P and for experienced builder services.
 

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Kevin_Richey

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John: No, I wasn't trying to start a fight w/ Vance. I don't agree 100% w/ everything what Vance writes here on the forum, but almost 100%. He has a strong personality w/ definite opinions, just like you do! It was (what I thought) a humorous poke @ you, WRT the current "flying gyroplanes (as well as all experimental aircraft & their varied powerplants) over large bodies of water" debating going on involving you, Vance, & others.

I make the following statements RE: flying over treacherous terrain, w/ the reminder that I am a big chicken as to flying where I cannot set down reasonable safely for both my aircraft & myself:

1. FLIGHT OVER LARGE BODIES OF H2O: I would surmise flying over Great Salt Lake is somewhat minimal as to dangerous flight. It is quite shallow in most parts, as well as providing just about the most amount of buoyancy there is on the planet for humans to bob in.

My guess is that Michael Burton considered these exact facts himself prior to making those flights w/ you, Kent, Cammie Patch, & whomever else may have been along to/from Idaho. Also, uppermost in his mind, I'm sure, are the precautions you mentioned above, such as a reliable, dependable, well-proven Rotax 4-stroke powerplant.

And, I believe your really fun gyroplane flights w/ MB & Cammie in Utah & Idaho, viewing the fantastic scenery usually reserved for certified airplanes & especially, turbine helicopters, has intoxicated your thinking that you will never have to answer to the Grim Reaper, because you know how to fly, even aerobatics!

Also, in that gaggle of gyroplanes, there was another gyroplane along, w/ four additional eyeballs to see if the other aircraft encountered difficulties, & could aid in the rescue efforts. Additional safety factor, like having a chase-boat along on a water crossing...

Emphasis here: Was it not after those flights you were on, that later, MB, as well as his business partner Marc Campbell, both suffered bodily injuries from crashing the exact same gyroplane TWICE near the summit of the Rocky Mountains? Flying an experimental gyroplane aircraft, using the venerable, dependable, reliable Rotax 4-stroke engine?!

Yes, the best care was taken in flying a non-certified gyroplane. Proper care & maintenance, The best engine the world depends on the most, that isn't US certified (but is in Europe).

Arguably one of the best gyroplane (MB) pilots there are, WRT flight experience, skill-levels in gyroplanes, common-sense, nice-guy type...and Mother Nature proved her forces of gravity, high winds, tall mountain peaks, & density altitudes, can STILL overcome all the preparation that a human can do to fly over treacherous terrain, and swats that tiny aircraft out of the air! Broken bones, back injuries, the Star Trek-inspired Caladus mangled, & the world hears of yet another gyroplane that is so dangerous to fly that it kills (or tries to kill) even the best, most-experienced, careful pilots!!!

Yes, there was also some pilot error involved in both accidents. Yes, even one possibly impaired due to marijuana in his system that blood testing revealed. Both accidents has passengers onboard. Easily could have been four deaths instead of major & minor injuries. At least, no sharks were in the vicinity to complicate their survival! Luckily for one of the accidents, a fisherman nearby the stream where they crashed into witnessed the crash & hiked up the mountain to gain enough cell signal to call for help for them.

The huge boulders in that stream would have ensured their deaths had they collided into one of them. W/out that fisherman's help, they likely would have died for being in sad shape to get out to critical medical care on their own. The female passenger couldn't walk out due to a broken leg & the other maybe impaired enough that his judgement abilities clouded the possibilities invoving going for help for both of them. I do not know what physical injuries he may have suffered.

I wouldn't have flown over Great Salt Lake, if it were me. I've flown over the marshlands of it near where the Bear River flows into it, while buzzing around the Brigham City airport during the Rotors Over The Rockies events in the past.

Even those swampy areas would likely refuse me to retrieve my aircraft if I went down there, as would GSL. Road access to the lake is extremely scarce. Short of a helicopter retrieval (which would be a huge expense...possibly more than the cost of my gyro, making it senseless), one would need a swamp buggy w/ huge capacity to get to the scene & be able to bring back a pile of wreckage.

Add to these thoughts, MB told me directly that the FAA & other federal agencies require wreckage removal. One cannot just leave it to age under the sun as many times has been done in the past history of flying machines. So, not only would I suffer the loss of the value of my now-wrecked machine, the retrieval costs would likely be that amount again, & then some! Suddenly, my flying over hostile terrain has cost me 2X, OR MORE, the value of my aircraft. That is not even considering if I become injured or killed, to compound the problems afterwards.

I maintain life insurance (for my spouse's benefit) that covers me while flying my experimental aircraft, as well as 24/7 accidental death. That mitigates the financial loss to her, but doesn't help me w/ extraction costs & destruction of my aircraft in situations such as we're discussing, since hull coverage is virtually non-existent for gyroplanes.

Apparently a few gyroplanes types can still buy it, but @ rates many, many times the airplane rates. Even liability-only insurance for gyroplanes @ approximately $3K annually (OBSCENE, in my opinion) is cost prohibitive to the average joe.

I limit my flying time over hostile terrain. I'll fly near the edges & peer into the abyss instead from above! That is all I need to be reminded of that BIG YELLOW STREAK running down my backbone! It is thrilling enough to peer into that gaping maw w/out soaring full-speed ahead down it's throat.

In the back of my mind is Ben S.'s mantra of his gyro flying out over the Pacific Ocean in California, that if the engine has been running normally for @ least 5 minutes, knowing the fuel supply is operating normally & the engine is also, then I would venture out from the fringes over hostile terrain.
Same for the wetlands alongside the Spanish Fork airport near the Interstate & Provo airport, where they are the fringes of freshwater Utah Lake, in the Provo Bay portion.

Flying down low over that area (about 50') I saw the many pools of standing water, w/ submerged logs & other swampy debris in them. Depth was hard to tell, but many of them appeared to be deeper than a man's height. It was after observing this that I had the discussion w/ MB about being required to remove an aircraft wreckage.

I've met Cammie Patch @ her hangar-home airstrip east of Boise. She is a very pleasant person to talk w/. I recommend her flight school to anyone who'll listen to me, like fellow chapter members here locally, even though I've not taken training w/ her or her CFIs on staff. I make sure to relate her requirement for training is to do it in one fell swoop, as the military does. She is also former military. So gyro-wanna be pilots cannot go to her training for a few hrs. here & there, a weekend @ a time, or a week's vacation here & there.

Comments continued in next post due to forum requirements of posts staying below a certain character limit.
 
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WaspAir

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Add to these thoughts, MB told me directly that the FAA & other federal agencies require wreckage removal. One cannot just leave it to age under the sun as many times has been done in the past history of flying machines. So, not only would I suffer the loss of the value of my now-wrecked machine, the retrieval costs would likely be that amount again, & then some! Suddenly, my flying over hostile terrain has cost me 2X, OR MORE, the value of my aircraft. That is not even considering if I become injured or killed, to compound the problems afterwards.

I maintain life insurance (for my spouse's benefit) that covers me while flying my experimental aircraft, as well as 24/7 accidental death. That mitigates the financial loss to her, but doesn't help me w/ extraction costs & destruction of my aircraft in situations such as we're discussing, since hull coverage is virtually non-existent for gyroplanes.
I haven't read your policy, but wreckage removal may be covered as property damage under one's liability coverage, and may not require hull coverage for a successful claim to be made. It is something you owe to someone else (in this case, a Federal agency) as a consequence of an accident, which is deemed to have damaged that agency's land/property, and that sounds like liability to me. Hull coverage pays you for what you suffer; liability pays for your obligation to others.
 

WaspAir

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P.S. Last time I had to cross the Great Salt Lake in a rotorcraft (west to east) and wanted to stay free of the SLC airspace, I flew along the south edge of the lake, until abeam that big island (Antelope?), then northbound along the island, and then a short skip to the northeast to Ogden. Total time over water wasn't much.
 

Kevin_Richey

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(Continued from my previous post)
2. CANYON FLYING: W/ that said about her, I would not recommend flying in canyons as she does, and apparently that is the type of flying you guys did back then along the Snake River canyon-lands. There was a heated exchange between her & Desmon Butts on the forum in the past RE: flying along @ excess airspeed, expecting that in case of power failure, a gyroplane could simply fly upwards out of danger to land on better terrain, maybe airplane-like.

I only have some 12 hrs. of flight training in tail draggers, so I don't know how well that would work in airplanes, but I doubt a gyroplane would climb much, if @ all, w/ excess A/S & then have loss of power. Possibly 25'-50', but that would require an immediate, hard aft movement on the cyclic to achieve that. Then you'd be just about @ a complete stop in the air, w/ no A/S. The situation would be almost just as bad too-low over somewhat level ground.

When the thrust is removed from a gyroplane, there is no float along @ that same altitude one was @ prior to the power loss. It is immediate downwards. How fast or steep depends then on the cyclic inputs, not "wishful thinking happy thoughts & prayers".

So, John: You posted on the accident thread for the Texas Sport Copter accident that you cannot share your experiences w/ us here on the rotary wing forum because WHO is preventing you from doing so?
You said you would share all your flying experiences & flight training over on FB...but that you can no longer post here about this subject.

Who is preventing you from continuing to do as you've done here? Vance? The absent moderators here? Other forum members stopping you? I believe the answer is you don't like others giving friendly warnings RE: good ADMs concerning gyroplanes. You don't like what someone is telling you, so you want to take your ball home & not share it w/ the rest of the gang & pout like little kids do!

You are indeed a highly experienced airplane pilot, who appears to me to be blinded by all your AIRPLANE experiences so that you can't see that your ego is clouding your thoughts about gyroplane flight..."Don't Tell Me!", one of the FAA's examples of dangerous attitudes in pilots.

As a few have written to you here: Go ahead & do your flying across the water 30 miles to Catalina Island in a gyroplane. Chances are high there would not be any problem the many times you might do it. But, many of us here, as well as in the gyro-world, would be saddened if ever an incident occurred, & the world discovered another gyroplane fatality, possible a double one, because an unnecessary risk was taken...

Then there are the huge financial costs incurred if you survived a water ditching...yes, you could go to work hard making good money in your areas of expertise to pay those expenses. But, is that really needed?

Why does it seem you have become distorted in your thinking when a gyroplane CFI, who has overcome death elsewhere, suggests to you that good ADM may save your life, or that of another?

The above comments in today's posts (as all of my comments) by me are MY OPINION only!
 

Kevin_Richey

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I haven't read your policy, but wreckage removal may be covered as property damage under one's liability coverage, and may not require hull coverage for a successful claim to be made. It is something you owe to someone else (in this case, a Federal agency) as a consequence of an accident, which is deemed to have damaged that agency's land/property, and that sounds like liability to me. Hull coverage pays you for what you suffer; liability pays for your obligation to others.
Not having even liability insurance to cover my flying, so hull coverage is also out. Self-insured.
I assumed I would have to dig into my pocket to pay for removal costs.
 

Kevin_Richey

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P.S. Last time I had to cross the Great Salt Lake in a rotorcraft (west to east) and wanted to stay free of the SLC airspace, I flew along the south edge of the lake, until abeam that big island (Antelope?), then northbound along the island, and then a short skip to the northeast to Ogden. Total time over water wasn't much.
Was that in your Air & Space 18-A, Jon?
BTW, your acquaintances not interested in selling theirs?
 

WaspAir

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That time was in my Bell, but it goes at gyro speeds and altitudes, with a similar glide ratio, and would float about as well.

No interest in selling at the moment; sorry!
 

Kevin_Richey

Yamaha gyro...Oregon, USA
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That time was in my Bell, but it goes at gyro speeds and altitudes, with a similar glide ratio, and would float about as well.

No interest in selling at the moment; sorry!
Jon: Do you still instruct in yours? That local fella might be interested (high time, retired ATP)
 

WaspAir

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Left it in CA when I moved to CO. Density alt is too demanding for it here (AWOS reports 10,000 ft regularly here at my airpark hangar). Might be going to AZ this winter to instruct an owner in his.
 

All_In

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(Continued from my previous post)
2. CANYON FLYING: W/ that said about her, I would not recommend flying in canyons as she does, and apparently that is the type of flying you guys did back then along the Snake River canyon-lands. There was a heated exchange between her & Desmon Butts on the forum in the past RE: flying along @ excess airspeed, expecting that in case of power failure, a gyroplane could simply fly upwards out of danger to land on better terrain, maybe airplane-like.

I only have some 12 hrs. of flight training in tail draggers, so I don't know how well that would work in airplanes, but I doubt a gyroplane would climb much, if @ all, w/ excess A/S & then have loss of power. Possibly 25'-50', but that would require an immediate, hard aft movement on the cyclic to achieve that. Then you'd be just about @ a complete stop in the air, w/ no A/S. The situation would be almost just as bad too-low over somewhat level ground.

When the thrust is removed from a gyroplane, there is no float along @ that same altitude one was @ prior to the power loss. It is immediate downwards. How fast or steep depends then on the cyclic inputs, not "wishful thinking happy thoughts & prayers".

So, John: You posted on the accident thread for the Texas Sport Copter accident that you cannot share your experiences w/ us here on the rotary wing forum because WHO is preventing you from doing so?
You said you would share all your flying experiences & flight training over on FB...but that you can no longer post here about this subject.

Who is preventing you from continuing to do as you've done here? Vance? The absent moderators here? Other forum members stopping you? I believe the answer is you don't like others giving friendly warnings RE: good ADMs concerning gyroplanes. You don't like what someone is telling you, so you want to take your ball home & not share it w/ the rest of the gang & pout like little kids do!

You are indeed a highly experienced airplane pilot, who appears to me to be blinded by all your AIRPLANE experiences so that you can't see that your ego is clouding your thoughts about gyroplane flight..."Don't Tell Me!", one of the FAA's examples of dangerous attitudes in pilots.

As a few have written to you here: Go ahead & do your flying across the water 30 miles to Catalina Island in a gyroplane. Chances are high there would not be any problem the many times you might do it. But, many of us here, as well as in the gyro-world, would be saddened if ever an incident occurred, & the world discovered another gyroplane fatality, possible a double one, because an unnecessary risk was taken...

Then there are the huge financial costs incurred if you survived a water ditching...yes, you could go to work hard making good money in your areas of expertise to pay those expenses. But, is that really needed?

Why does it seem you have become distorted in your thinking when a gyroplane CFI, who has overcome death elsewhere, suggests to you that good ADM may save your life, or that of another?

The above comments in today's posts (as all of my comments) by me are MY OPINION only!
Move this post. Somehow it was in between your 1st and 2nd post.

I would never suggest you fly over anything you do not think you could handle.

First, do no damage and I helped Vance scare off at least 3 people that told us that exactly. All because I wanted to learn to water ditch.
I do not want to be part of the problem!!!

I'm preventing myself from posting or asking questions about preparing for flights months in advance of flying them until I have an actual license and about 100 hours.
I believe having no gyro signoff is what bothers Leigh as he stated clearly just post the flights and Vance the most. They are correct I'm repeating Vance's and other experts' advice from this forum (book learning) as if it was my actual flying experience in gyros. Until I can fly like Ron will shut up. Henry already asked me to not tell Vance he's teaching me certain maneuvers.

Was only trying to learn water ditching procedures so I could practice them 1st in my chair at my desk and then for real with Henry. But look at all the folks I helped Vance scare. I cannot continue to be the one responsible for that damage to our sport.
 

All_In

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If I continue to share or ask about the only questions I have left on emergency landing on water and trees. There is a much greater chance of Vance and me causing damage to our sport than the flight of 3 over the snake river in my opinion.

There was little fun in that thread mainly instilling fear according to those who told Vance and me at a very SMALL gathering = 3% of them. Consider the forum has a worldwide audience and interpolate the same 3% now scared.
I help create that much negative physiological damage so I have fired myself until trained.

The difference in taking the risk in a flight of 3? I have awesome memories of a view and flying a gyro through canyons over rivers and the Salton Sea that apparently few others will ever know. The worse that could have happened was I died exactly the way I wish to leave this planet. Living life to the fullest.
And my choice of flight paths only hurts me, not the public/many = the 3%. But I do fly and preach fly from one landing zone to the next whenever possible.
 
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All_In

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P.S. Last time I had to cross the Great Salt Lake in a rotorcraft (west to east) and wanted to stay free of the SLC airspace, I flew along the south edge of the lake, until abeam that big island (Antelope?), then northbound along the island, and then a short skip to the northeast to Ogden. Total time over water wasn't much.
If I had selected the route. That is what I would have done, not my gyroplane to risk and only 4 hours logged at the time. Flying across the Salton Sea in FW or gyro where I cannot glide to the other side is not worth the view.
Besides, been there done that. Especially as I did not have my life vests. That was a first, but soon forgot about it.

Catalina Island in my FW will not glide to the other side however it is worth the risk for diving, fishing, boating, and the Jazz Festival.

PS:
After writing that all of those attractions add additional risk to life, except the Jazz Festival. Of being eaten by a great white shark, I've seen several when diving the north side, when fishing being speared by a swordfish or marlin has happened and there are many ships lost at sea.
 
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All_In

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Thank heavens there are no sharks in the sky, and you can safely inhale the fluid around you.
Hahahahahahahahaha Bet I would have very little traffic?
If it did. I have to fly Bro... My solution would be flying with my scuba gear and explosive head spear guns mounted on my gyro.
That could become a sport like jumping rental cars?
 
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