Crash and burn... or just crash?

XXavier

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Nicolas told me that he does think about fuel tank construction/location/protection with his Aviomania designs.
I'm not aware of any Aviomania gyroplane fires.

May be as you say, but there are not many Aviomania gyros around, not enough for valid statistical comparisons.

A few years ago, and after reading good things here about those gyros, I sent them an e-mail asking for information. But they never replied.
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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Referring back to the seatbelt. I have always had a seatbelt that buckles in the middle of my stomach. great idea,... yeah right. I found myself lying on the side in a rollover. The stick was pushed into the middle of my stomach, because the rotor head was being pushed from the rotorhead resting on the ground. I could not push the stick forward. I discovered that the buckle was almost imposable to release. My seatbelt's no longer buckle in the middle, they buckle on the side near my hip.
This should make it easier to release, if I should find myself laying on the side.
 

DarDow101

Dar
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Jun 11, 2017
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Utah
My peace of mind solution.
Home made seat tank fire extinguisher system, emergency knife for cutting seat belt strap if 2 way release buttons fail.
 

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Sv.grainne

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A few years ago, and after reading good things here about those gyros, I sent them an e-mail asking for information. But they never replied.

I've been corresponding with Nikolas for almost a year and have had a couple of problems. One my email went to a spam folder, another he was on business travel and missed my email but when I followed up he got right back to me.

Bobby
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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My answer to you would be that the word ‘competent’ in this context should not be confused with 'good aviator’. It was used to denote that 4 of them had acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding knowledge, about flying autogyros. They died because they made questionable/dangerous errors that resulted in their deaths. Good aviators tend to survive because they observe safe practices and exercise good judgement at all times. Sadly this does not however prevent unforeseen circumstances beyond their control, from claiming even the best of them

It would be my estimation in over 50 years flying in a wide variety of aircraft, that the margins of safety when flying a gyro, and flying almost any fixed wing are smaller. (Note that I have not included trikes/weight shift aircraft as I have only a couple of hours in them.)

I do believe that one is not as safe in a gyro and this possibly due to the fact that rotor aerodynamics are more complex, less understood, and easier to get wrong.


Ok. Thanks for clarification on competent and what you meant by it. It makes more sense now.

I would argue that the 2 blade fixed teetering rotor is the absolute simplest rotor there is and it’s aerodynamics are fairly straight forward and it’s 2 per rev behavior makes complete sense. Any other rotor is more complex than this. The accidents are not happening because people don’t understand it’s aerodynamics etc. which they indeed may not but that is not the cause of the accidents. The accidents are happening because of the same reason they happen in fixed wing GA. Bad judgment calls. Arrogance. Basically bad ADM. even the accident like student solo after already doing XC once that day. That’s bad ADM. it falls straight on his instructor. Of course the student was fatigued and tired. What else was expected. Flapping the rotor on takeoff even there the pilots know what they did wrong even when they were taught different. Bad ADM. it’s more in gyros than inGA
 

fara

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the eclipse had this issue at the beginning, but I can tell you that it is over now, there is no more leak ... but to be honest I would not feel that good in a closed machine with the tank inside with me ..

the magni tanks is made of fiberglass and epoxy resin ( a special resin ) , in case of a big shock the I fear the tank could tear up ... the plastic tanks like in the dta are heavy but in case f a shock then don't tear up like fiberglass

Magni and AutoGyro tanks are made of composite cloth using Vinyl Ester resin. Vinyl Ester resists alcohol to a point. Epoxy and Polyester resins don't. But eventually even Vinyl Ester leaks with constant exposure to ethanol. In 2007/8 we had to change a lot of trike fuel tanks because of this issue. Plus composite fuel tanks split crack open on a shock load unless they are made extremely heavy or mounted on rubber suspension.
 

Resasi

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I have never feared JM, but certainly do have a very healthy respect for the massive amount of energy that rotor has, even on a Bensen.

Have flown a number of two seaters and have to say they are nothing like the same to fly. It is the agility of the singles I really enjoy.
 
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Aviomania

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A few years ago, and after reading good things here about those gyros, I sent them an e-mail asking for information. But they never replied.
Javier, We reply to all emails. If we did not reply it can be due to 2 reasons.


1: if you used our contact form and you misspelled your email address.. there is no way we can reply as we use that address to reply. We had a lot of email undelivered due to the fact that people misspelled there email address.

2: We get around 40-50 spam emails a day. Every 3-4 days we go through the spam folder and check if there is a legitimate email in there so we can reply. We might have missed your email. Also people write emails to us in their own language... if it does not go in our spam folder we translate it... if it goes to our spam folder we do not translate.....

Anyway sorry for missing your email whatever the reason was.
 

XXavier

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Madrid, Spain
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ELA R-100 and Magni M24 autogyros
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664 gyro (Nov. 2020)
Javier, We reply to all emails. If we did not reply it can be due to 2 reasons.


1: if you used our contact form and you misspelled your email address.. there is no way we can reply as we use that address to reply. We had a lot of email undelivered due to the fact that people misspelled there email address.

2: We get around 40-50 spam emails a day. Every 3-4 days we go through the spam folder and check if there is a legitimate email in there so we can reply. We might have missed your email. Also people write emails to us in their own language... if it does not go in our spam folder we translate it... if it goes to our spam folder we do not translate.....

Anyway sorry for missing your email whatever the reason was.

Spam is indeed a problem, and valid e-mails are sometimes missed. This was my e-mail:

Captura de pantallai 2020-11-14 a las 14.34.32.jpg
 

JETLAG03

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france
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Hi folks.

Just received this from the UK, a tank breather with automatic (ball bearing) closing device in case off rollover have to say, very nicely made.

My fuel tank has a large screw cap filler which seals completely when closed, hence the need for a tank breather, as my tank is U shaped and wraps around the main tube, I need two, one for each side on the high point. I propose to connect the two breathers via a balance pipe in the form of a "T" and then pass the tail at least 1m up the mast to avoid any risk of splash back. What do you think ??


phil (de fer)
 

Aviomania

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Javier, I searched my archived emails and i do not have this email. For one reason or another i did not receive it (or was deleted in the spam folder).


https://www.aviomania.com/about/ here you can read about the fuel tank safety we incorporated in our single seat design (as well as other features).
 

XXavier

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Madrid, Spain
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ELA R-100 and Magni M24 autogyros
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Javier, I searched my archived emails and i do not have this email. For one reason or another i did not receive it (or was deleted in the spam folder).


https://www.aviomania.com/about/ here you can read about the fuel tank safety we incorporated in our single seat design (as well as other features).
Thanks!
 

Vance

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Hi folks.

Just received this from the UK, a tank breather with automatic (ball bearing) closing device in case off rollover have to say, very nicely made.

My fuel tank has a large screw cap filler which seals completely when closed, hence the need for a tank breather, as my tank is U shaped and wraps around the main tube, I need two, one for each side on the high point. I propose to connect the two breathers via a balance pipe in the form of a "T" and then pass the tail at least 1m up the mast to avoid any risk of splash back. What do you think ??


phil (de fer)
I feel it is a good idea Phil.

Often in an accident the fuel tank will rupture of the fuel lines will get pulled loose.

It is a step in the right direction.

We used them on race bikes at Bonneville.
 

Tyger

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It seems like a roll-over breather valve won't be much help if your tank ruptures or the fuel line pops off it...
I guess it's useful if you roll over and nothing fuel related actually breaks?
 
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JETLAG03

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france
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It seems like a roll-over breather valve won't be much help if your tank ruptures or the fuel line pops off it...
I guess it's useful if you roll over and nothing fuel related actually breaks?
I agree @Vance and @Tyger but it is maybe a step in the right direction, and we cannot negate every risk, sadly, without staying relatively safe at home.


phil (de fer)
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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The most common gyroplane accident it to tip over on the runway and a one way valve on the fuel vent is a great way to deal with that.

I feel there is value in thinking about all kinds of accidents and how to best mitigate the hazards.

I am alive today after tipping over around 300 miles per hour at Bonneville because of all the safety equipment on board.

Jim Deist spent a day on his stomach trying to figure out the best location for the seat belts and I set off one of my two five pound Halon fire extinguishers on board during the crash sequence.

I had a one way valve on the fuel vent.

There was no fire, no leaking fuel and no injuries to my body except for the head injury.

The Sothern California Timing Association (SCTA) came up with rules after my accident that might have saved my head.

A modified RAF in my hangar now had seat belts with no pivot on the ends. I find this a common mistake. In order to get the full strength of the webbing the steel mount must pivot on the mounting bolt. If it doesn’t and the pull is not straight the mount will cut right through the webbing.

We replaced the 2002 seat belts with new ones and the mounts pivot now. The SCTA wants seat belts replaced every two years.
 

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