Cavalon - Nephi - N882M

[NJpilot]

I think the company should at least demonstrate that the device works in flight with a real gyro.

BRS never demonstrated on a plane in flight until one was designed for the certified Cirrus. I'd like to see a remote controlled gyro saved but I'm not holding my breath.

The video I see is of a ground test, where the rotor appears to self destruct or something at the end. If it's everything they claim, then it should be able to put the gyro down with zero damage to the gyro.

I figured that would come up. Best guess is they underestimated the downward force the fully opened chute exerted on the pickup bed and it bottomed out the blade clearance. No ballistic recovery company would claim zero damage. Where exactly did you see that claim?

 

[NJpilot]

Going back on the NTSB reports two years from today (27 accidents) I could not find a single gyroplane accident that in my opinion; likely would have had a happier ending with a parachute.

I did a similar search and found plenty in my opinion. The main issue is so many accidents began at a very low altitude.

Chris Lord was at 900ft when he most likely realized things were going wrong. Anytime from then until he descended to 300ft, he could have deployed a GRS and landed under a chute. Why do you feel a GRS, that will fully deploy at 260ft and above, would not have worked?

 

[PJB]

I dont agree the CL thing would have worked out differently. At 900ft he was at 90knts. At the 260ft (your number) he was slowed significantly which absolutely demonstrates positive control inputs. Then it hit wires.

 

[Vance]

I did a similar search and found plenty in my opinion. The main issue is so many accidents began at a very low altitude.

Chris Lord was at 900ft when he most likely realized things were going wrong. Anytime from then until he descended to 300ft, he could have deployed a GRS and landed under a chute. Why do you feel a GRS, that will fully deploy at 260ft and above, would not have worked?

I didn’t find a main reason that a parachute wouldn’t have helped.

We had takeoff accidents, landing accidents, only one IMC accident and I don’t see where any would have had a better outcome if they deployed a parachute.

I was just looking at the NTSB reports without an agenda and trying to imagine if a parachute would have helped.

I don’t know what happened to Chris Lord.

Based on the preliminary accident report in my opinion a parachute would not likely have helped. It is just my opinion.

I feel you should have your parachute because it helps you feel safer.

You will need to find someone else to argue with.

 

[PJB]

Yes Vance makes a fair point if you want one then you should buy one but as many have said it isnt going to save you from gash flying / poor airmanship. If you have to fly in hostile areas then thats a risk you are alive to and accept the risk - i guess in those situations a BRS is arguably of most use. However if you have normalised risk taking such that you're taking risks when you dont need to because you no longer care i dont see a BRS offering more protection because i dont think you'd pull the cord.

 

[NJpilot]

However if you have normalised risk taking such that you're taking risks when you dont need to because you no longer care i dont see a BRS offering more protection because i dont think you'd pull the cord.

A list of situations that might benefit from a chute, including airmanship mistakes which plenty have died from, is simply an attempt to offer a solution when caught in those mistakes. I certainly do not plan on being in any of these situations, that's your opinion of me for some reason. Should I stop practicing stall recovery in fear of normalizing the poor airmanship that would get me into a stall? A chute is a way out of unindented trouble just like stall recovery.

 

[Abid]

You guys are too much. So there's no need for a solution to prevent airmanship mistakes from killing people aside from training them to avoid them.

That would certainly change pilot training. We can loose under the hood training because a properly trained pilot will always avoid IMC. The same goes for stall recovery. No need to have a solution for a stalled plane because only a bad airman would stall the plane.

John. Man just get GRS and install it. My only purpose is simply to straighten out your list of reasons for a proper analysis

What BRS does sometimes, is give false sense of security and people start to do things they otherwise would not. So having a straightened out set of reasons why one would want BRS and keeping that in mind is good basis of analysis.

Be safe and get what you would like on your machine. You are free to install what you would like on an Experimental AB machine in our system. No need to argue about it.

 

[PJB]

A list of situations that might benefit from a chute, including airmanship mistakes which plenty have died from, is simply an attempt to offer a solution when caught in those mistakes. I certainly do not plan on being in any of these situations, that's your opinion of me for some reason. Should I stop practicing stall recovery in fear of normalizing the poor airmanship that would get me into a stall? A chute is a way out of unindented trouble just like stall recovery.

I didnt make.any inference about how you fly any comments about airmanship merely reflect many of the senarios you paint.

If you have a BRS then its only ever gping to save you if you recognise the issue and.activate the system. The point people are making about airmanship are just that.

In the UK it would require a huge faff with authority to even fit one and given our laws around over flight of congested areas, etc mean oitside of a midair or aircraft disintrrgation i cant see the point.

 

[loftus]

BRS never demonstrated on a plane in flight until one was designed for the certified Cirrus. I'd like to see a remote controlled gyro saved but I'm not holding my breath.



I figured that would come up. Best guess is they underestimated the downward force the fully opened chute exerted on the pickup bed and it bottomed out the blade clearance. No ballistic recovery company would claim zero damage. Where exactly did you see that claim?

With a rotating blade (that can oscillate) vs a fixed wing I'd really like to see more proof that the blade and parachute lines could not entangle under any circumstances.
Nevertheless, I think you've made clear that you wish to purchase one, so I think you should. Others here have given their reasons why in the case of a gyro, an autorotating rotor will likely be more effective than a parachute. In the few known situations where either a rotor has failed, or detached, or the mast failed as the TAG accidents - it's quite likely that the parachute would have been lost, entangled or destroyed as well.
So people have given their honest opinions that they feel the advantages of a parachute in a gyro do not outweigh the potential disadvantages. It's clearly not enough for you. When you purchase one I'd be very interested to see it installed, so hopefully you will post.

 

[Abid]

With a rotating blade (that can oscillate) vs a fixed wing I'd really like to see more proof that the blade and parachute lines could not entangle under any circumstances.
Nevertheless, I think you've made clear that you wish to purchase one, so I think you should. Others here have given their reasons why in the case of a gyro, an autorotating rotor will likely be more effective than a parachute. In the few known situations where either a rotor has failed, or detached, or the mast failed as the TAG accidents - it's quite likely that the parachute would have been lost, entangled or destroyed as well.
So people have given their honest opinions that they feel the advantages of a parachute in a gyro do not outweigh the potential disadvantages. It's clearly not enough for you. When you purchase one I'd be very interested to see it installed, so hopefully you will post.

I think Victor Agadzi has installed one on his in Florida

 

[NJpilot]

In the few known situations where either a rotor has failed, or detached, or the mast failed as the TAG accidents - it's quite likely that the parachute would have been lost, entangled or destroyed as well.

At the risk of being accused of arguing I'll respond.

I saw you mentioned the TAG accidents before, but when you mentioned mast failures it rang a bell. GRS does have a optional kevlar belt that ties the rotor head assembly to the main structure in the case of the M24 which has a steel frame. So one does have a fighting chance in the case of a mast failure.

 

[NJpilot]

In the UK it would require a huge faff with authority to even fit one and given our laws around over flight of congested areas, etc mean oitside of a midair or aircraft disintrrgation i cant see the point.

Interesting, I came across something similar when talking the the Swiss Adventura-s gyro where they said they couldn't include a GRS and be German DULV certified. Being at Aero with DULV just down the hall I asked them why. They said because there was no such thing a ballistic recovery option for gyros. I of course told them about Galaxy and walked over to Galaxy and told them they need to talk to DULV.

 

[All_In]

Bottom line Vance is right. If you want one get one. The added perceived or real value is worth the psychological peace of mind. I carry a thin auto-inflating boat and an inflatable life jacket when ferry new Pipers from the USA to Africa, Oz, and New Zealand. Like there were going to last and save me in the middle of the ocean? Not; but I feel better having them so as a pilot in command I carry them to save about 30 to 45 lbs for real gear and I have peace of mind.

 

[GyrOZprey]

At the risk of being accused of arguing I'll respond.

I saw you mentioned the TAG accidents before, but when you mentioned mast failures it rang a bell. GRS does have a optional kevlar belt that ties the rotor head assembly to the main structure in the case of the M24 which has a steel frame. So one does have a fighting chance in the case of a mast failure.

And we await the laboriously long coroner's inquest process & ASRA's final report .... but the TAG ( FOLDABLE)mast's in all likelyhood DID NOT FAIL AS A PRIMARY cause ...but as a secondary "weakest-link" material OVERSTRESS in two different scenarios where excessive forces impacted the flight & structure.... that would have torn ANY mast design apart ...at some place!
.....cannot get into discussion any MORE ...BUT be aware ... first appearances are NOT ALWAYS SO!

 

[Abid]

And we await the laboriously long coroner's inquest process & ASRA's final report .... but the TAG ( FOLDABLE)mast's in all likelyhood DID NOT FAIL AS A PRIMARY cause ...but as a secondary "weakest-link" material OVERSTRESS in two different scenarios where excessive forces impacted the flight & structure.... that would have torn ANY mast design apart ...at some place!
.....cannot get into discussion any MORE ...BUT be aware ... first appearances are NOT ALWAYS SO!

Chris. That makes a lot more sense actually to me.

 

[WaspAir]

Should I stop practicing stall recovery in fear of normalizing the poor airmanship that would get me into a stall? A chute is a way out of unindented trouble just like stall recovery.

The critical difference is that an inadvertent stall in a fixed wing aircraft is possible, while no day VFR pilot in history has ever "inadvertently" flown over a thick forest. I am suggesting looking out the window while you fly, not suggesting that we all need to be Charles Lindbergh. Where you fly is a deliberate choice, not an accidental happenstance. (And I am not suggesting anything about you personally. )

 

[Kolibri]

With a reliable rotor (and independent trim-to-the-rotorhead), the rotor IS the "parachute".
I had neither in my RAF originally, but as Maya Angelou said, "When you know better, do better " -- so I did.
This thread has been interesting to me, however mostly theoretical.

For some gyros, a BRS borders on "gilding the lily".
However, if it provides peace of mind, then by all means install one.

I try to generally fly over landable terrain, and will go somewhat out of my way to do so.
When over forests, water, or congestion I am very vigilant about envisioning "what-if" scenarios.
Such not only "preloads" the subconscious mind, but your decision making is likely improved.

Safe flying,
Kolibri

 

[PJB]

Interesting, I came across something similar when talking the the Swiss Adventura-s gyro where they said they couldn't include a GRS and be German DULV certified. Being at Aero with DULV just down the hall I asked them why. They said because there was no such thing a ballistic recovery option for gyros. I of course told them about Galaxy and walked over to Galaxy and told them they need to talk to DULV.

Yes unfortunately gyroplanes for most EU states are a pain and were they to disappear no EU national authority would shed many tears. In the UK we cant buy them in kit form actually not because you legally cant but because no manufacturer wishes to go through the pain of offering then from a regulatory perspective and tbose that have got a gyroplane UK approved like some payback.

So what that means practically here is that any modification, any option needs to be approved by the mabufacturer and none are offered. Actually i suspect they might improve sales if they fitted BRS because the image of the gyroplane even in 2019 isn't great but there are wider considerations.

Cavalon/M24 models would seem an easy fit/application but open tandem aircraft means in the hangar the system is open to all and sundry, instructors need to be clear on not having the student pull and servicing i suspect becomes more complex for all. Add to which our Brexit project has put GBP in the can (what is it? 1.26 to USD and 1.11 to EUR) and currently a new Sport is pushing towards £80k and a Cavalon with any kind of avionics fit is up towards £140k. That is not cheap aviation and i dont see the race to add another £10k for equipment and the hassle and (lets not forget) the time and money even energy introducing something new to regulators. In the UK we like to show the world we have a gyro night and CPL rating.... it took years of activity, distracted those who were highly placed in authoroty and i can tell you that precisely ZERO have taken up the offer since.

 

[Abid]

I have been interested in LAA way of offering a kit of AR-1 in the UK. Looking into it and trying to see who could do it there. Should cut off 20k pounds off the price

 

[PJB]

I have been interested in LAA way of offering a kit of AR-1 in the UK. Looking into it and trying to see who could do it there. Should cut off 20k pounds off the price

The LAA are based at Turweston where I am and the guys there (LAA) are very keen that somepne should offer a kit so i rhink you'd have every assistance (ill happily do likewise).
If you could offer a 2 seater open tandem with 912 power, basic instruments for £50k (especially with GBPUSD at 1.26) it would sell.
I think however the challenges (not technical just the process, time, energy and by default cost) of BCAR-T are considerable. By way of comparison the most recent aircraft to be granted approval is the Magni M22, that took 3 years via the CAA.
Suffice to say its a joke but as I said the LAA are motivated to get a kit gyroplane approved and they have reasonable influence with the CAA.