Category and class certificates

[WaspAir]

Yes, you could have replaced the airspeed indicator with a decal.

 

[Storeyaviation]

Try as I might, I can find no FAA references that describe a SPC or a Recreational certificate as a restricted version of the Private Pilot Certificate. That would appear to me to be saying your ASEL is a restricted version of my ATP SMEL. They are different with different standards, privileges, and limitations.

You won’t. But if you lay all the requirements out and look at them you can clearly see the restrictions and it was well advertised when recreation and light sport came out that they were restricted versions of the private.
Anyway, that is how the FAA described it to me. May not be documented to the public, but internally everyone knows.
kinda like when someone says they have a Private Pilots License (PPL). Some will say I can find no FAA references that uses the term license, it’s a certificate. Until they see the definition for license… I have seen in writing where the FAA uses the term license…

I also can't understand why a Recreational pilot can't fly an experimental aircraft or why a Sport Pilot can't fly an experimental aircraft that meets the Part 1 definition of a Light Sport Aircraft. I do understand that helicopters do not meet that definition, but I don't understand what that has to do with Recreational pilots.

It appears you may be conflating Recreational pilot privileges and limitations with Sport pilot P&L.

Jim

I said in the beginning that “I’m not that versed in recreation and light sport“ as that is not what I deal with. But as you described, light sport can only fly those experimental aircraft that only meet LSA requirements. Limited or restricted.
A recreational pilot per 61.98 can only fly what training they have taken and notated on their certificate. Aka single engine land, OR helicopter OR Glider. As it was explained to me, a SEL recreational pilot certificate can not legally fly an experimental helicopter. A Helicopter recreational pilot certificate can not legally fly an experimental aircraft. I have no idea if that pertains to LSA SEL. Again, limited or restricted… The Private Pilot Certificate has been the main general aviation certificate for many, many years long before the recreational and light sport were even thought of.
Sorry for allow you guys to back me into a corner for recreation and LSA but again, I did say up front that I’m not versed in those Certificates.

 

[WaspAir]

But if you lay all the requirements out and look at them you can clearly see the restrictions and it was well advertised when recreation and light sport came out that they were restricted versions of the private.Anyway, that is how the FAA described it to me. May not be documented to the public, but internally everyone knows

It was well understood that the privileges were less extensive, but that in no way makes a Sport Pillot or Recreational certificate a restricted Private certificate, anymore than a Commercial is a retricted ATP. Each level has its own privileges and and limitations set out in separate, unrelated FAR sections. Your insistence on the "restricted" notion seems to be what is leading you astray, because you draw unwarranted conclusions from that assumed status. There is no standard level from which others are defined, and the Private certificate is not the basis for others. The opinions of some nameless FAA employee who spoke to you do not carry the force of law, but the published FARs that the rest if us rely upon are laws promulgated under the Administrative Procedures Act, which are as binding on the FAA as they are on pilots. The FARs trump any staff opinions.

A Helicopter recreational pilot certificate can not legally fly an experimental aircraft.

You are making this stuff up. Read the FARs and you will find no such restriction exists. I cited the pertinent section above but you have quite obviously not bothered to read it.

Search 14 CFR 61.101 (Recreational pilot privileges and limitations), find a prohibition on flying experimental aircraft, show us where it is, and then we'll listen. Anything less is merely a mistaken, ill-informed assumption on your part.

 

[Storeyaviation]

It’s kind of general common knowledge for those that are aware of the privileges and limitations of recreation and sport pilot vs private pilot…

From the Light Sport Aviation LLC website:
“Recreational Pilot Certificate: The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license, and considered to be a step below.“

From UpperLimitAviation.edu
The Sport Pilot license is a limited and more restrictive pilot's certificate than that of Private or Recreational.
The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license.

And it goes on…

 

[WaspAir]

It’s kind of general common knowledge for those that are aware of the privileges and limitations of recreation and sport pilot vs private pilot…

From the Light Sport Aviation LLC website:
“Recreational Pilot Certificate: The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license, and considered to be a step below.“

From UpperLimitAviation.edu
The Sport Pilot license is a limited and more restrictive pilot's certificate than that of Private or Recreational.
The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license.

And it goes on…

And this from the same person who gave me grief over mentioning unofficial, non-governmental sources?

Show us the FAR support for your claims, or admit that there isn't any.

 

[Abid]

A Helicopter recreational pilot certificate can not legally fly an experimental aircraft.

What???

 

[Abid]

It’s kind of general common knowledge for those that are aware of the privileges and limitations of recreation and sport pilot vs private pilot…

From the Light Sport Aviation LLC website:
“Recreational Pilot Certificate: The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license, and considered to be a step below.“

From UpperLimitAviation.edu
The Sport Pilot license is a limited and more restrictive pilot's certificate than that of Private or Recreational.
The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license.

And it goes on…

This is like saying Private pilot cert is a restricted version of Commercial cert.
Obviously the privileges are less on lower levels (like Sport Pilot cannot fly more than 1 passenger or currently cannot fly at night or fly what we would consider VFR - clear of clouds and 1 mile visibility - he/she needs clear of clouds and 3 mile visibility even in class G) but the license is solidly based on a whole section of the FAR which stands on itself. You may not have bothered to read those FARs but at least you ought to as a pilot have a conceptual understanding how pilot certificates have formation basis on standalone FARs.
In the proposed NPRM, Sport Pilot can get training and endorsement for night VFR and fly at night as well and fly 2 seat helicopter which do not have fully articulated rotor system. So the only restriction the Sport Pilot with endorsements in coming rules will have is not being able to fly more than 1 passenger in practical terms and not being able to fly helicopters and gyroplanes of more than 2 seats or with fully articulated rotor system or I should add non-fixed pitch rotor blade gyroplanes. Trikes and PPC remain pretty much as is for the machine side but as I understand trike pilots will also be able to fly at night with further training and night endorsement.

 

[MikeBoyette]

I took my gyro commercial add on in/on Steve's Marchetti and my CFI Gyro add in Don's 18A.

The Marchetti had a very complex envelope. Takeoff 45, cruise 45, Vno 45, Vh 45, Vne 45, approach and landing the same....45

Life was simpler in many ways

Jim

I used to call it a flying dump truck. I took my check ride in the original one he had after being trained in the newest one he built. It was much easier to fly since it had one of Dad’s tails on it. You should have seen Steve’s face when he and dad were test flying dad’s blades on his machine. He almost had a stroke when dad pushed it up to 90 mph. Dad just said see no uncommanded pitch up. Steve said that’s nice no slow this thing down. Steve loved the combo. He actually flew faster at the end.

 

[bryancobb]

It’s kind of general common knowledge for those that are aware of the privileges and limitations of recreation and sport pilot vs private pilot…

From the Light Sport Aviation LLC website:
“Recreational Pilot Certificate: The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license, and considered to be a step below.“

From UpperLimitAviation.edu
The Sport Pilot license is a limited and more restrictive pilot's certificate than that of Private or Recreational.
The Recreation Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted version of the Private Pilot’s license.

And it goes on…

I UNDERSTAND NOW! I see where you fell off the bike Dave! The origin of your confusion lies in the mingling of a couple or three words.
1) Restricted 2) Restrictive 3) Restricted-Version.

I agree 100% that the Sport Pilot Certificate is "a limited and more restrictive" pilot certificate than a Private Pilot Certificate is.
The FAR's support that idea but don't say so using those terms.
I do not agree that the "Recreational Pilot Certificate is a limited restricted-version of the Private Pilot Certificate.
The FAR's DO NOT support this idea at all. You will never see anything in the FAR's that says that, or implies that.

I have a friend with a helicopter Private Certificate. He has polio and he has a "RESTRICTION" on his license requiring a belt around his legs.
My Flight Instructor Certificate has a "RESTRICTION" on it. That is...It must be accompanied with my Commercial Pilot Certificate.

Now, there is absolutely nothing in the FAR's that prevents a person with only a Recreational Pilot Certificate from piloting an experimental aircraft, of any kind, including helicopter. If the Operating Limitations Letter says "The PIC of this aircraft must have an appropriate category and class," then Recreational Pilot Certificate must be Rotorcraft/Helicopter.

Since there is no such thing as a helicopter that is Light Sport Eligible, A person with only a Sport Pilot Certificate cannot fly an experimental helicopter. It is not because his Sport Pilot Certificate is "restricted." It is because no such helicopter exists. A Sport Pilot can certainly fly an experimental airplane, as long as it meets all of the LSA Eligible criteria.

I STILL QUESTION whether or not a plastic card STUDENT PILOT CERTIFICATE is a "pilot certificate." If it is...in the legal sense, the holder of one, can get a solo signoff by a CFI, in any aircraft, and then can legally fly any experimental aircraft, unless that aircraft's Operating Limitations prohibit it.

 

[Mayfield]

Since there is no such thing as a helicopter that is Light Sport Eligible, A person with only a Sport Pilot Certificate cannot fly an experimental helicopter. It is not because his Sport Pilot Certificate is "restricted." It is because no such helicopter exists. A Sport Pilot can certainly fly an experimental airplane, as long as it meets all of the LSA Eligible criteria.

Can the holder of a Sport Pilot Certificate fly an experimental helicopter under 61.31 (d)(2)? If so, since he is not a student pilot, does he require the solo endorsement to be renewed?

Jim

 

[bryancobb]

Can the holder of a Sport Pilot Certificate fly an experimental helicopter under 61.31 (d)(2)? If so, since he is not a student pilot, does he require the solo endorsement to be renewed?

Jim

No. Sport Pilot Certificate only allows you to be PIC of an aircraft that has been found to meet all the LSA Eligibility criteria and got an Airworthiness Certificate as a Light Sport Aircraft, OR a Standard Category aircraft like a Cub or Rag-Wing Ercoupe that meets all th3 LSA Eligibility criteria. There are no helicopters that have LSA Airworthiness Certificates.

 

[Mayfield]

No. Sport Pilot Certificate only allows you to be PIC of an aircraft that has been found to meet all the LSA Eligibility criteria and got an Airworthiness Certificate as a Light Sport Aircraft, OR a Standard Category aircraft like a Cub or Rag-Wing Ercoupe that meets all th3 LSA Eligibility criteria. There are no helicopters that have LSA Airworthiness Certificates.

I know, since I have given several practical tests to PASEL applicants with a SPC, that a holder of a SPC can get the training required, including the required endorsements, and become a PASEL pilot after taking the required tests.

Since I am aware of no mechanism by which an airman can hold a student pilot certificate and a SPC, how would an SPC ASEL, become a PRH?

61.31.(d)(2) says:
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—

(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

61.87 (p)(4) says:
(p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has—

(4) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter.

The reason I cite 61.87 (p)(4) is because it requires a 90 day endorsement for Student Pilots. A pilot seeking an additional rating is not a Student Pilot. Not playing semantics here. Really interested in your opinion.

Jim

 

[WaspAir]

I would give a different answer.

Achieving an SP certificate cannot act as a barrier to training that anyone with only a Student certificate could legally undertake. It cannot reduce your privileges to earn that SP certificate with respect to anyone who has not earned it. Any different result would be a perverse dead-end.

61.31(d)(2) does not include a limitation as to the certificate held when the endorsement is granted. (One wrinkle - a Sport CFI is not an "authorized instructor" for purposes of giving that particular endorsement .)

61.315, limits and privileges for SP, does not prohibit taking instruction in an aircraft that doesn't qualify as Light Sport. It says you may be PIC in an LSA under appropriate circumstances, but does not overrule 61.31(d)(2). The SP certificate does not provide the authorization for solo, the endorsement does.

There is no statutory 90 day limit since the candidate does not hold a Student certificate.

When it is all said and done, the candidate could be, for example, a Private (or Recreational) Pilot, Rotorcraft Helicopter, with Sport Pilot privileges in ASEL.

 

[Mayfield]

I would give a different answer.

Achieving an SP certificate cannot act as a barrier to training that anyone with only a Student certificate could legally undertake. It cannot reduce your privileges to earn that SP certificate with respect to anyone who has not earned it. Any different result would be perverse.

61.31(d)(2) does not include a limitation as to the certificate held when the endorsement is granted. (One wrinkle - a Sport CFI is not an "authorized instructor" for purposes of giving that particular endorsement .)

61.315, limits and privileges for SP, does not prohibit taking instruction in an aircraft that doesn't qualify as Light Sport. It says you may be PIC in an LSA under appropriate circumstances, but does not overrule 61.31(d)(2). The SP certificate does not provide the authorization for solo, the endorsement does.

There is no statutory 90 day limit since the candidate does not hold a Student certificate.

When it is all said and done, the candidate could be, for example, a Private (or Recreational) Pilot, Rotorcraft Helicopter, with Sport Pilot privileges in ASEL.

And, in the gyro community it is very common to hold a PASEL with Sport Pilot privileges in gyroplanes.

Further, could a person holding a SPC take training, earn a solo endorsement in a helicopter and then solo, operating limitations permitting, an experimental, single seat helicopter?

Jim

 

[WaspAir]

Yes. Operating limitations permitting (and yes, I know how rare that is), solo flight under 61.31L(2)iii(b) is also available. That section similarly fails to state a particular minimum level of certificate held.

 

[Mayfield]

One value of this forum is that it allows us to engage in a Socratic form of teaching. In my case, sometimes as the teacher and sometimes as the student, but always rewarding.

Thanks JR

Jim

 

[WaspAir]

Indeed. The saddest thing is to stop learning.

That's one of the best advantages of being a CFI. To translate my signature quote, it says in French "to teach is to learn twice."

 

[StanFoster]

JR...."The saddest thing is to stop learning".

That is a superb quote. I am retired, but still learning as I push myself to take on more complex stairways, and I strive to make each one better. When I see a decline in quality, that is when I will decide to do something else.

For now I am fully retired doing what I want to do.....build stairways. If I stop building them, I will stop learning...and that would be sad.

So, yes, someday I will have to quit, and I will be sad.

 

[bell206]

I had a wealthy PASEL student who I started training in my R22, decided he liked my Jetranger better, so I trained him in the Jetranger and with a solo endorsement he made me an offer I couldn't refuse, and he became the owner of the Jetranger.
He contacted me 10 years later to clarify a maintenance logbook entry because he was selling the helicopter.
When I questioned him he told me he put 1000 hrs on the helicopter but never obtained a rotorcraft license.

 

[bryancobb]

Since I am aware of no mechanism by which an airman can hold a student pilot certificate and a SPC...

Yes there is a process in place to do that. In the old days your very first Class III medical was a manila tear-away card that the Doc' gave you after completing your physical. It served also as your Student Pilot Certificate and had solo endorsements on the back.

After the plastic license with your picture became the norm, a student applicant had to apply through IACRA for a license and with the help of the FSDO, a DPE, or a CFI, the 8710-2 form is submitted electronically to the FAA and they send you a student pilot certificate (plastic license).