Calidus Instructor Pack

eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
I think anyone who replaces a 1" thick aluminum plate with one made from 1" thick 4130 steel probably

knows nothing about aviation design,or safety.(4130 is 3 times heavier than aluminum)

The aluminum plate was replaced because a 1/2" bolt was overtightened and caused the plate to crack.

He did not redesign a plate of the same weight ,he just used the mentality

of lets make it heavier,it will be safer that way,when actually he made his Gyro more dangerous.
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Straw men arguments. Apples-to-oranges comparisons.

fara, since we're talking about heavier 2-place gyro masts, aluminum is moot.
The issue is between your 304 stainless vs. aircraft ubiquitous 4130 chrome-moly.
Compare two masts of identical strength (the stainless must be of thicker wall, since it's weaker): which mast will wear out or fail first?
That is the question.

I've never alleged that 4130 was "magic" or utterly without its own issues.
What I have said is that for gyros (especially the heavier ones) it's the best material for masts.
Either steel can work harden in use, but stainless is noticeably worse about that.



_______________
Vance, by now I simply do not trust your judgment on gyro safety.
You've defended RAF/RAFSA and both of their atrocious hub bars.

You lambasted my "campaign against RAF" even though their disastrous assembly of ZU-RHO fully justified the public's loss of faith in them.

You've defended ELA despite their 07 machines failing in mid-air and killing pilots.
How many more failed hub bars, thrown rotor blades, or broken tail booms would you need to finally even whisper a caveat?

You're a gyro CFI, so you've business and political considerations. To malign any gyro would reduce your client base.
All manufacturers of inferior/low-time gyros must see you as an ally.



_______________
eddie
, as I explained in that redrive plate thread, that RAF part hadn't radiused bolt holes and such was unknowable unless disassembled.
That's where it cracked. I did not overtighten that crossbolt. (Your plate was much better finished from RAF than mine was. Lucky you.)

Chrome-moly steel was recommended by both my machinist and Jim Vanek. 7075 probably would have been "OK" but I wasn't in the mood for merely that.
And, I was forced to use have the plate made with the OEM thickness because of the standoff distance relationship between the crank and prop pulleys.
Result: a way overstrength plate that will never fail on me or the next guy for the weight penalty of a couple gallons of gas.
Where you got "
dangerous" from that, who knows. You're still flying around with junky $2 control rod ends that not even RAFSA uses anymore.

Meanwhile, notice that once (finally, due to public pressure) you quit blaming the factory and owned up to your Sport Rotors installation debacle,
I never subsequently jeered you for your goof. It would have been in bad taste.

Regards,
Kolibri
 
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eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
Whats dangerous is your lack of basic knowledge about weight and balance for one thing,good aviation design for another,

but having your experts telling you to use a 1" piece of aluminium,but instead you weren't in the mood so you chose 1" thick steel plate

instead, thats what is really dangerous.why didn't you just make a new piece and give it the quality finish that in your expert opinion it should have had.
 
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WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Kolibri;n1137290 said:
Vance, by now I simply do not trust your judgment on gyro safety.
* * *
You're a gyro CFI, so you've business and political considerations. To malign any gyro would reduce your client base.
All manufacturers of inferior/low-time gyros must see you as an ally.
It is one thing to disagree with conclusions drawn by Vance, but it is another thing entirely to suggest that he would put his personal economic interests above aviation safety, and still worse to question his motives. That attack is defamatory, unfounded, and unseemly. A public apology is in order.
 

HighAltitude

in transition
The choice has come down to ban the village idiot or lose one of the best members that we learn from (Vance). Too many pilots have left this forum over this nonsense. Where is Todd?

The original post was asking about purchasing the instructor pack with his gyro. Kolibri instantly turned it into a bashing of AG products. The original poster even gave up and started a new thread. Why do we have to go through this over and over in every thread?
 
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WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Bans are rarely useful, but I think it should be acknowledged that even after all the injuries Vance has suffered over the years, his heart remains in the right place.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
bThank you J.R.

I love the way you use the language and understand the etiquette of discourse.

It is my observation that when some people are short of facts some people prefer ad hominem

attacks. I feel this is a good example of that and do not expect an apology.

Thank you for the kind words. I do spend a lot of my time trying to make flying safer.

Thank you for the thought Tim,

I am glad you find value in some of my posts.

Posters like him do not have the power to drive me away from my friends on the Rotary Wing Forum that I love so much.
 
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Piot135pd

Here to Learn and Help
Vance;n1137321 said:
....It is my observation that when some people are short of facts some people prefer ad holmium attacks...
More truthful words can not be said !! It happens to me all he time when someone tries to tell me off about politics and is so off the mark I just have to reply. I always ask them to tell me in their words how it's better for them personally but I ask them to answer without using any talking points. The next thing out of their mouth is usually to insult me and not answer the question. It's almost funny if it weren't so sad that this happens in all walks of life.
 

Brian Jackson

Platinum Member
Originally posted by Vance
....It is my observation that when some people are short of facts some people prefer ad holmium attacks...

Besides rhyming, these would make good song lyrics!
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
but having your experts telling you to use a 1" piece of aluminium,but instead you weren't in the mood so you chose 1" thick steel plate
eddie, can you not read clearly? I've already explained that Vanek recommended chrome-moly over 7075 for the plate.
We discussed it at some length, and concluded that especially since we hadn't much confidence in RAF's design abilities. (My machinist agreed.)
7075 would have probably lasted throughout the short remainder of my ownership, but I didn't want the next owner to risk having to replace it.
That felt responsible of me then, and still does.


__________
the village idiot
HighAltitude, really, I've never called you any names, yet you posted a public message on my profile, calling me on 14 August a "complete dickhead".

The original post was asking about purchasing the instructor pack with his gyro. Kolibri instantly turned it into a bashing of AG products.
The original poster even gave up and started a new thread. Why do we have to go through this over and over in every thread?
First of all, I only piped up when others began to recommend the AR-1, and I felt it proper to mention the upcoming Sport Copter M2.
I did not then, and still don't, trust the longevity of stainless steel masts. I felt this was relevant to the poster's question about "substantially compelling reason to seek solutions elsewhere".
To me, ruggedness and safety qualified. So, forgive me for trying to steer a 73 y/o first time gyro owner that direction!


__________
It is one thing to disagree with conclusions drawn by Vance, but it is another thing entirely to suggest
that he would put his personal economic interests above aviation safety, and still worse to question his motives.
WaspAir, please carefully re-read what I wrote.
I didn't actually claim that he "
would [intentionally] put his personal economic interests above aviation safety".
Rather, I think that he is overly lenient on problem gyros (and one CFI in particular), and probably unconsciously so due to a
natural bias towards an industry, profession, and colleagues of his own.
If so, that makes him human vs. venal. I do apologize for not making the distinction obvious in my post.

That said, I do not trust his general judgment, because his defense of marginal, suspect, and even failing parts/design is eerily consistent:
AISI 1112b RAF control ends (which the British CAA issued an MPD about).
The <2004 RAF hub bar which was notoriously crack prone.
RAFSA and the Mocke family.
ELA and their 07.



I suspect they have improved their process and quality assurance since this accident since I have not heard of any other failures and only one crack.
It appears to me there are lots of ELAs flying around.
So, a tail boom falls off in flight, causing a fatal crash, and Vance's response is (as always) to defend the mfg.
But, that's not all:


Just yesterday I was discussing tail boom failure in a high thrust line gyroplane with a client and our conclusion was
as long as the power was reduced and the empennage didn't reach the rotor it would be survivable if there wasn't a fire.

From the description of the accident the pilot may have left the power in and had a power push over.
Such implies that if power were reduced after losing the tail boom, that a PPO could be avoided.
It is my opinion that any power left in while and after (for even a moment) losing the tail will result in a PPO.
The only conceivable way for a lost tail boom not to buntover the airframe is if power were zero beforehand.
So, I thought his was an inaccurate and irresponsible conclusion.

I wasn't the only one aghast. Mike G replied:


Steve
You're wasting your time, we discussed it here and nobody was interested.

​​​​​​​The conclusion seems to be that since the only members who talked about it were one owner, of debatable technical competence,
and a competitor to ELA there was nothing to discuss and that it doesn't matter if the frame cracks because of lousy welding, you will pick it up in a thorough pre flight.

It was also said that ELA's terrible stainless steel welding quality isn't a problem for the US because they are buying Eclipses that have 4130 frames.
Nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that if they don't know how to weld stainless there's a pretty good chance they don't know how to weld 4130 either.
Translation: ELA has their heads up their butts, and it shouldn't be only 1-2 people here on the forum saying so.


ELA post-crash table.png
Besides, on numerous occasions Vance has questioned my interests and motives, going so far to call me a troll in the ZU-RHO thread
when I was ultimately vindicated by the SAA accident report.


As far as apologies go, Vance is quite in arrears there with me.
Notably, when I was denigrating the older AN12 RAF winglet bolt, he castigated me for my
"drama" and "RAF bashing" since only one had ever failed.
Yet, he slammed me for flying my RAF with a "known defect in the rotor system" . . . that same AN12 bolt! (Which my RAF never had, but the newer NAS bolt.)
When I challenged him on the paradox and insisted on an apology, he went silent (as he always does when check-mated).

__________
I think I'm at last in the Mike G camp on these issues: it's a waste of time as "nobody is interested".

So, y'all keep buying and flying lightweight copies of copies of copies with pots-and-pans material for masts. Metal is metal!
Time will soon enough bear out the truth, as these machines attempt to achieve anywhere near 1000 hours without common fatiguing.

Regards,
Kolibri
 
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"The conclusion seems to be that since the only members who talked about it were one owner, of debatable technical competence ............"

Out of curiosity, who is this one owner referenced above?
 

Piot135pd

Here to Learn and Help
Seems like this thread will never die so let's talk about the TAG Titanium with it's titanium frame and mast, is that better than the Sport Copter? I know helicopter rotorheads are made of titanium so it must be good.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
ELA has issues but they are related to their welding capacity/capability/process and QC in blade manufacturing. Making that a generalization that all frames made of stainless steel won't make to 1000 hours is without any merit. There are 100's of AutoGyro Gmbh frames out there which have made it well past that and I believe they don't even do proper back purge or back flux painted welding which they all should. For Titanium its even more essential to use even more pure environment and purge everything during welding or the same exact problem happens in it as SS
 
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fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Alan_Cheatham;n1137352 said:
"The conclusion seems to be that since the only members who talked about it were one owner, of debatable technical competence ............"

Out of curiosity, who is this one owner referenced above?
Probably Mike G
 

eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
Also Helios use complete carbon fiber rotor heads.

I have heard that the TAG is a very well built machine and it is made a little larger than most.

Farmer Jim seemed to really be proud of his and enjoyed flying it.

It was the machine that finally got him in the air with complete trust and confidence in its construction and flyability.
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Making that a generalization that all frames made of stainless steel won't make to 1000 hours is without any merit.
There are 100's of AutoGyro Gmbh frames out there which have made it well past that
fara, I wrote masts, not frames. The distinction is important.
I'd be very keen to inspect some high-time AG masts.


__________
so let's talk about the TAG Titanium with it's titanium frame and mast, is that better than the Sport Copter?
I know helicopter rotorheads are made of titanium so it must be good.
Fine by me, Piot135pd. I'm only interested in eventually seeing not a hint of issue with mast/rotor system strength.
Sport Copter and Magni seem to excel there, and I've also generally heard good reports about Titanium gyros.
TAG Aviation's rationale is explicit:


Why Titanium?

With the reports of cracking hub bars and cracking aluminium rotor blades on some European gyros we decided to look at better materials to use in our new gyro
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Kolibiri:
There is no difference between a mast and a frame for these gyros. They are one big welded assembly. TAG has a separated mast held by a couple of AN 6 bolts all the way at the bottom but that aside, all the rest have one frame and mast is a part of it.
Have you ever examined actual structural elements of these gyroplanes, Magni, AutoGyro Gmbh, ELA G7, Titanium gyro etc. carefully in person?
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
But it is the upper mast which acts like a "live shaft" in an orbital fashion, thus its material and design are crucial.
Yes, I know that the mast is welded to the lower frame.
I've examined some of these in person, and will further my study.

Recall that I posed a very simple question:

The issue is between your 304 stainless vs. aircraft ubiquitous 4130 chrome-moly.
Compare two masts of identical strength (the stainless must be of thicker wall, since it's weaker): which mast will wear out or fail first?
That is the question.
And it's one that nobody here has tackled.

Regards,
Kolibri
 
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