Buying an ArrowCopter second hand

ckurz7000

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deandob;n1127185 said:
The biggest issue is the bottom of the rudder has worn down so needs repair to the carbon fibre (I assume not too difficult - but the arrow does not seem to have any protection for tail scraping on takeoff/landing). I thought it flew well but I was only a passenger and not experienced enough.
The ArrowCopter has a tail wheel which protects the rudder and makes it impossible that the bottom of the rudder touch the asphalt. Earlier versions had a protectice carbon fiber spur which served the same purpose albeit not as elegantly. You can damage your rudder only if you take off this spur and fly without it.

-- Chris.
 

ckurz7000

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XXavier;n1127163 said:
As this news is from December 2015, when the new chef, Siegfried Gruber, says that 'he intends to resume production in January', he means January 2016. Almost two years have passed since then...
They had to move twice due to a problem with the owner of the place. Moving a production company is never an easy task and set them back almost a year. They are now getting ready for production and gathering orders for a production run, I believe.

-- Chris.
 

deandob

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Chris, thanks for the comments, clarifies quite a few concerns that have been raised in this thread. The world record in this machine is especially impressive. And also good to hear that they will continue to support older machines and still have stock of parts.

Did you have any troubles with the nose pitching up at high speed as reported earlier in this thread? Also, do you recommend any updates to the older Arrows based on the experiences of the machines that have been flying for a few years now (eg. features that might be added to arrowcopter v2 if FD Composites are starting up production again)? The tail wheel is obviously an improvement as the Australian one has scraped away the bottom of the rudder and I checked my photos of G1010 it still has the carbon spur on it, so unsure how the pilot could have scraped the rudder bottom with the spur on?
 

loftus

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May I ask what the asking price is for the Arrowcopter? They are beautiful, but seems like it's the type of gyro a 'collector' might buy, with all the support uncertainities etc, not a machine one would want to rely on for regular service.
 

ckurz7000

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On my machine I run out of nose down trim at around 170-180 km/h. That means that I have to apply gentle forward pressure to fly faster than that. That's all. It is not a sudden pitching up or anything. Just that the trim maxes out at around that speed and so you need to maintain a bit of forward pressure.

I have consulted with the company on the matter of developing a v2 of the ArrowCopter. On the top of my list is a differential incidence horizontal stabilizer which would make it the first gyro certified with this feature after Cierva's, I believe. This would obviate the need of a laterally offset rotorhead while at the same time providing improved stability in the case of loss of rotor thrust. A few improvements could be made to further streamline the fuselage, particularly in the rear section. This would make an already slick gyro even slicker. Depending on funds available, I would also look into a new rotor design with a new airfoil because the trusted old NACA8H12 isn't the best one out there. I would also increase cabin space to accommodate more stow room. That's about it.

I am also sure that, as the Rotax 915 iS becomes available, that it will become an option for the ArrowCopter. This requires some amendement to the certification, though.

The tail wheel is obviously an improvement as the Australian one has scraped away the bottom of the rudder and I checked my photos of G1010 it still has the carbon spur on it, so unsure how the pilot could have scraped the rudder bottom with the spur on?
I have no idea how one could scrape the rudder with either the spur or the tailwheel installed. I certainly haven't managed and I make a point of landing touching the spur first.

Greetings, -- Chris.
 

ckurz7000

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loftus;n1127215 said:
May I ask what the asking price is for the Arrowcopter? They are beautiful, but seems like it's the type of gyro a 'collector' might buy, with all the support uncertainities etc, not a machine one would want to rely on for regular service.
I am not sure, to tell the truth. A lot depends on the installed options. The company is productive and gearing up to start a new production run. They have have been servicing all ArrowCopters and will continue to do so. The ArrowCopter is very easy to maintain. There are few things for which you would need company assistance. And there is a Service Manual (a certification requirement) which details all steps required (with photos), all materials and tools required, for maintaining the ArrowCopter.

-- Chris.
 

fara

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Chris:
I am glad you chimed in. Jason Knight had listed a few problems he had seen with his Arrowcopter.
The one that had caught my eye was a significant pitch up when he released forward pressure and he attributed it to be a stability issue. That description did not seem to be a stability problem to me but a trim range issue. I gave my opinion about that.
The other thing he listed that was interesting but I don't think I completely visualized was an adverse yaw with roll from the airfoil on the landing gear.
I hope Jason doesn't mind but best to use the words and not my interpretation:
"It's a beautiful aircraft and flies on rails. The two issues I saw were what I pointed out, stability in fast flight and forward stick pressure. If you release the stick pressure in fast flight, you get a quick nose up attitude (not particularly good). If you get out of trim in fast flight, the windward winglet can drag and cause yawing and rolling."

Can you comment on this windward winglet drag and causing yawing and rolling. If I understand what he is describing, I have my own ideas but you are there with the machine and can trim it properly.
As you know I have used airfoils on landing gears since 2006 on faster trikes though at 6 feet not 8 foot wide stance. AR-1 has it too and I have not seen any real issues that I can attribute to them.
 

ckurz7000

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Hi Abid,

yes, the trim hits the forward stop at about 170 km/h. If you fly faster you will have to maintain slight forward pressure on the stick. Let go of the stick and the nose will come up. Not a stability issue.

I don't quite understand what Jason wrote about "the windward winglet can drag". Which is the windward winglet in flight? There is no "wind" except the one you make yourself when flying. So maybe he is talking about flying uncoordinated? Jason, can you clarify what you meant?

Thanks, -- Chris.
 

fara

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ckurz7000;n1127234 said:
Hi Abid,

yes, the trim hits the forward stop at about 170 km/h. If you fly faster you will have to maintain slight forward pressure on the stick. Let go of the stick and the nose will come up. Not a stability issue.

I don't quite understand what Jason wrote about "the windward winglet can drag". Which is the windward winglet in flight? There is no "wind" except the one you make yourself when flying. So maybe he is talking about flying uncoordinated? Jason, can you clarify what you meant?

Thanks, -- Chris.
Hi Chris:
I do not understand the windward winglet dragging as well. I can take a guess but not sure I am right. What I guess he means by "if you get out of trim in fast flight" is that if he lets go of the pressure forward to keep speed, he experiences yaw and roll. I don't see how unless the gyro is not set/trimmed properly to fly co-ordinated
 

ckurz7000

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I don't understand it and can't confirm this behavior on my machine. I can confirm that the forward trim hits the stop at around 170 km/h and you need to apply forward pressure if you're flying faster. But regarding "dragging of the windward wing" I am at a loss.

-- Chris.
 

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Delighted to hear that it is still up and running. Though beyond my means, though a serious intention at one time, I was hugely grateful to Chris for my visit to the factory and chance to experience this machine.

It remains as the ‘’'supercar'’ of the gyro world, and Chris as probably one of the best placed people to offer any advice or insight to this particular gyro.
 

fara

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ckurz7000;n1127216 said:
On my machine I run out of nose down trim at around 170-180 km/h. That means that I have to apply gentle forward pressure to fly faster than that. That's all. It is not a sudden pitching up or anything. Just that the trim maxes out at around that speed and so you need to maintain a bit of forward pressure.

I have consulted with the company on the matter of developing a v2 of the ArrowCopter. On the top of my list is a differential incidence horizontal stabilizer which would make it the first gyro certified with this feature after Cierva's, I believe. This would obviate the need of a laterally offset rotorhead while at the same time providing improved stability in the case of loss of rotor thrust. A few improvements could be made to further streamline the fuselage, particularly in the rear section. This would make an already slick gyro even slicker. Depending on funds available, I would also look into a new rotor design with a new airfoil because the trusted old NACA8H12 isn't the best one out there. I would also increase cabin space to accommodate more stow room. That's about it.

I am also sure that, as the Rotax 915 iS becomes available, that it will become an option for the ArrowCopter. This requires some amendement to the certification, though.



I have no idea how one could scrape the rudder with either the spur or the tailwheel installed. I certainly haven't managed and I make a point of landing touching the spur first.

Greetings, -- Chris.
Chris: Have you tried using some gurney flaps tabs on your gyroplane tail instead of a full differential incidence tail? Try them not only can you mess with them and adjust their angle but they work to take torque away. Sikorsky and Bell use them on helicopter HS as well.
 

ckurz7000

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I have thought about using full length trim tabs to experiment. Will get around to doimg that one day.
 

ckurz7000

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I have thought about using full length trim tabs to experiment. Will get around to doimg that one day.
 

fara

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ckurz7000;n1127308 said:
I have thought about using full length trim tabs to experiment. Will get around to doimg that one day.
Try it. They can in essence have the same effect as differential lift and they work. Unlike the popular conception here that they won't be effective on tails that are at the bottom of propeller arc, I am here to tell you, they are most effective on that style tail. They in fact may be less effective on a centered tail comparatively but you'll have to check it out. Let me know what you find. It would be very interesting to know
 

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fara;n1127325 said:
Try it. They can in essence have the same effect as differential lift and they work. Unlike the popular conception here that they won't be effective on tails that are at the bottom of propeller arc, I am here to tell you, they are most effective on that style tail. They in fact may be less effective on a centered tail comparatively but you'll have to check it out. Let me know what you find. It would be very interesting to know
YES Abid ...... I can attest to the dramatic influence of a full / long trim tab on the tail rudder of new-generation tandem gyro! Those who know the story behind my wild first flight at Mentone this year ...after my TE tail trimtab had been deliberately & artfully totally reversed:twitch: ( & to my shame not noticed!):whip: ....during the week on display at Airventure! ....... That little bit of bent metal on the tail ...REALLY is effective!!!!
 
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