Butterfly Monarch - a few questions

I fly a 503 on a Dominator Ultrawhite, in Florida all summer long. I weigh about 220 atm, and it flys me without issue.

How does a Dominator UW compares to a Butterfly Emperor in terms of flight characteristics ?
Both use the 503, dry weight is almost identical but the Emperor mast is slightly lower, and the tail design different.


Rob
 
Dominator UW's are awesome, they fly great! I never flew a butterfly but I know the monarch is a good design also.
 
Dominator UW's are awesome, they fly great! I never flew a butterfly but I know the monarch is a good design also.

Scott, thanks for the reply.
The UW has a somehow large vertical tail, who does the gyro perfrom in windy situations ?

I understand that the machine is "great " I am just trying to find some specific small differences to narrow my choice.

Rob
 
Differences as I see it.

Differences as I see it.

Rob,

While I have never flown a Dominator myself, I have talked to lots of people that have flown both and have asked them about the differences. I don't think there is a lot of difference in the way to two Gyro's fly. You are talking about very similar Gyros with similar weights and similar performance. While there are some small differences they do not drastically change how easy they are to fly or how stable they are. The last person I talked to, on this subject owned one of both and he told me he really didn't prefer one above the other, but he did feel the Dominator was more of a bare bones Gyro while the Butterfly seemed more like an elegant version of a Gyro to him.

I believe the biggest difference between similarly equiped models would be the Dominator has a slightly low thrust line (compared to the center of gravity on the machine) The difference you will notice from this is when you add power it will tend to slightly raise the nose and when you sharply cut the power it will slightly drop the nose. The Butterfly, on the other hand, is closer to center line thrust and when you add power it really doesn't change the pitch of the Gyro at all, instead you just start climbing in a flat horizontal position and likewise when you cut power, it tends to stay more level and just start descending.

Now a big potential difference would be if you choose to put the G-Force landing gear on the Butterfly. That opens up a whole new world of capability for the Butterfly that the Dominator just doesn't have. Not everyone seems to think that is important but I personally believe the day will come when it will be accepted and recognized by the sport as a whole as a very important safety feature.

You really can't go wrong with either one of these Gyros. They both have proven to be easy to fly, stable machines that have fiercely loyal followers. The Dominator has been around longer and has many more examples flying than the Butterfly has, but the Butterfly is starting to catch up and has some advanced options that no other Gyro line can offer. I can't image being disapointed by either one.
 
Hi Doug, thanks again for your detailed post- highly appreciated by a newbie like myself.
 
Hi helipaddy, nice video..I see in one of the photos from the link that you have a water cooled engine on that UW - a 582 I assume. Was it a personal choice over the 503 ?

Rob
 
Rob,
I had the 503 on it initially and it flew absolutely fine with me at around 200-215lbs depending on how much chocolate I was eating. The 503 is an excellent engine and will fly the ultrawhite around really well. I just wanted a bit more power and the 582 gives the machine brilliant performance.

The landing gear on the Dominator works very well. it is simple, light and effective.
 
helipaddy, since you flew the exact same machine with both engines, how much extra weight did the 582 add with everything (radiator etc..) and did you feel any changes in overall handling ?

Rob
 
Rob
I dont remember exactly but it was not much. Maybe around 8lbs.The 582 weighs a bit less than the 503.
The machine with me in it and the 503 engine and full fuel was at the forward end of the hang test limits, so the addition of the 582 brought the nose up a bit in the hang test and this was a plus.
There are no changes in overall handling, the 582 has a bit of extra power that helps to drag it around at low speed. the 503 engined machine really teaches you to fly smoothly and accurately to get the best performance out of the machine.

If you weigh less than 200lbs the 503 will be fine.

What sort of strip do you intend flying the gyro out of?

If I won the lotto, I would quite happily buy and build another single place Dominator and put a 912 on it and keep it forever.
 
helipaddy, I am 140 lbs/64kgs so any engine will work really, but i thought that a more powerful engine might be more fun overall... and allows shorter take off perhaps.
The strip is a rough grass field..a bit uneven at places.

Rob
 
Rob,

At your weight and altitude the 503 will provide good performance. If you will watch some of Rotorhead's videos you will see that he was able to do incredible things with a light Air Command with a Rotax 447 engine. (much less power than a 503) Having less power will simply require you to learn to be a better manager of your power. Many people feel there is less chance of you getting yourself in trouble as a new pilot, if you start out with a less powerful Gyro and learn proper power management.

However, most pilots will eventually want to upgrade to a more powerful engine. I subscribe to the theory that you can never have too much power. Now that doesn't mean an inexperienced pilot can not get into trouble with too much power. As humans, we are very good at finding ways to get our selves into trouble. But having plenty of power, applied properly, is a very good position to find your self in.

Having more power than the minimum required to fly, means you will not have to be flying at max power settings all the time. With the 120 HP Yamaha engine Racer has put on his single place, he has never had to use full throttle yet in any of his flying. That means his engine is running at lower rpms (which is good for the longevity of the engine) and he always has a reserve of power available if he ever needs it. Now he is flying out of a high altitude airport so he doesn't really have 120 HP available to him, but he still has around 100 HP available to him and that is more power than he needs to fly, so he is able to throttle back and have more control and more options when it comes to his power needs. I think that is always a good idea. I have yet to hear someone say, "I really put too big an engine on my Gyro, I really don't need that much power and I wish I had stayed with a smaller engine."

If you can afford it (more HP always cost more money, both to acquire and to run) and if it is done right (with a good power to weight ratio) it is always nicer to have more power. But everything comes with a trade off. More power = more cost and more weight. To me, it depends on where your priorities are. For example, in my case I am wanting to fly over mountainous terrain that could mean very limited areas to put down in case of an engine out. So the absolute ultimate engine reliability available is high on my priority list. So I have decided to go with a Rotax 912, 4 stroke engine. It is a very expensive option that many people on the forum simply would not consider for their machines, but for my goals and my priorities, it is the best choice and I have had to find a way to make it happen. Only you can decide what is most important to you. Once you know what you really want, then others with experience can help you decide what options might best meet your goals. Deciding what you really want most, can be a long process or can be arrived at rather quickly, depending on your personality and the urgency you are feeling over the decision. Regardless, enjoy the journey.
 
Hi Doug, with the high costs of shipping stuff to Japan and the high maintenance costs (time and cost to ship spare parts etc), limited support over there, It pays to make the right choices from the begginning.

As you pointed out, safety and reliability is the most important point of course, so with my light weight I could be running a 582 at half-throttle most of the time, and with only 8lbs of added weight for the engine that might no be very noticeable in flight.

I was also thinking about the HKS engine, 4 stroke, which has approx. the same weight as a 582 in total but with 5 hp less. Not sure how reliable those are now though, and how those would work in those type of light gyros.

Rob
 
Rob
With your weight the 503 ultrawhite will be a great performer.
 
I started off with a 503 Emperor Butterfly, set of 21' 9" Bensen Blades and no pre-rotator weighed less than 254 lbs and carried me at 220 lbs with ease.

It's my belief that gyros seem to get heavier not lighter and causative factors can be pilot weight goes up or pilot wants to add something, engines, pods different blades and a damn good pre-rotator for short, rough field take-offs.

I am sure helipaddy loved his 503 Dom as much as I loved my 503 Emperor, its great when the gyro is light and simple.

But life is not simple and as we can see from helipaddys engine upgrades and desire to whack a bigger more powerful 4 stroker on the back of a Dom, is indicative of my experience and I would suggest many others.

I now have a 582 Monarch with MLS pre-rotator and am morphing my gyro again with some Butterfly upgrades.

Good luck Heli and whichever way you go stick with a rotax and enjoy the journey.

Fly Safe.

Mitch
 
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Beware making design changes.

Beware making design changes.

Hi Doug, with the high costs of shipping stuff to Japan and the high maintenance costs (time and cost to ship spare parts etc), limited support over there, It pays to make the right choices from the begginning.

As you pointed out, safety and reliability is the most important point of course, so with my light weight I could be running a 582 at half-throttle most of the time, and with only 8lbs of added weight for the engine that might no be very noticeable in flight.

I was also thinking about the HKS engine, 4 stroke, which has approx. the same weight as a 582 in total but with 5 hp less. Not sure how reliable those are now though, and how those would work in those type of light gyros.

Rob

Rob,

I haven't heard any horror stories about the HKS that would make me shy away from it. It is probably a reasonably good and reliable engine. The biggest challenge would be that neither the Dominator nor the Butterfly was designed for that engine so you would be making design changes and developing a new design on your own. Sometimes that isn't too big of a deal and if you have the skills or access to someone else with the skills, to fabricate the custom parts, it's not a problem.

However, anytime you change anything (engine, PSRU, Prop. etc.) you may be making design changes that could have a major effect on the balance or thrust line or flying characteristics of the machine. If you are an experienced designer or have access to help from an experienced designer, then you can make the needed changes to adjust for the modifications you are making. But going this route without a complete understanding of the issues is the biggest reason Gyro's have gotten a reputation for being dangerous. Because they seem so simple, lots of people have made unsafe design changes and paid the ultimate price for their mistakes with their life. These types of modifications should not even be considered by people who are new to Gyros and only very cautiously by people who have enough experience and background with Gyros to believe they have the knowledge and skill required to do it properly.

For the person new to the sport, you would be wise to stick to an existing model or version that has been tested and proven safe. At least that is how I feel about it.
 
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