Blade Sailing

ferranrosello

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Messages
398
Location
Madrid
Aircraft
Ela 07
Total Flight Time
FW: 600, HELOS: 3550, GYROS: 3020
Additionally, this is the situation in the 90º azimuth. At lower and higher azimuth all AOAS are smaller.
 

Jean Claude

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
2,364
Location
Centre FRANCE
Aircraft
I piloted gliders C800, Bijave, C 310, airplanes Piper J3 , PA 28, Jodel D117, DR 220, Cessna 150, C
Total Flight Time
About 500 h (FW + ultra light)
...you have calculated the AOA od an airfoil in the 75% of the blade. All blade elements between 75% and 100% are working at lower AOA’s.
Of course! And also, all blade elements between 0 and 75% are working at higher A.o.A's
As I said, it just for an easily understand of phenomena that the blade is reduced to an element taked at 75%R

How do you know that an AOA of 12.8º in a blade element is stalled? It depends on the airfoil and
Observe the curves of the usual NACA 0012. The stall of 8H12 is even earlier
Sans titre.png
in a rotating blade the blade elements are able to fly at much bigger AOA’s than a fixed wing with no stall.
You probably confuse the A.o.A with the pitch setting.
 

Attachments

  • 1655064711671.png
    1655064711671.png
    1.2 KB · Views: 0

ferranrosello

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Messages
398
Location
Madrid
Aircraft
Ela 07
Total Flight Time
FW: 600, HELOS: 3550, GYROS: 3020
No. It is not a confusion. I have read this about retreating blade stall in helicopters. The full stall state doesn’t happen when the 90º azimuth position is fully stalled. It happens when de stall spreads about 30 to 40º of azimuth.
 

Jean Claude

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
2,364
Location
Centre FRANCE
Aircraft
I piloted gliders C800, Bijave, C 310, airplanes Piper J3 , PA 28, Jodel D117, DR 220, Cessna 150, C
Total Flight Time
About 500 h (FW + ultra light)
Depending on whether it is a helicopter or gyrocopter rotor, the area where the stall occurs in forward flight is very different:
Sans titre.png
 

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
1,798
Location
Clermont, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
450
It seems possible to me, but not destructive, that it is the too fast maneuvering of the control stick that pushed the stops to meet the blades, faster than the roll or pitch rate of the rotor moves it away from them.
Now that I can definitely visualize...
 

Doug Riley

Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2004
Messages
6,742
Yes, that really happens in gyro flight. It's especially common with heavy blades such as McCutchen Skywheels and (I imagine) one-piece extruded blades.

Example: in executing hard, rapid S-turns, the pilot will sometimes feel a "slapback" in the stick as the rotor hits the teeter stops during the reversals. This indicates that the rotor hasn't had time to precess (tilt) to the commanded orientation.

This phenomenon probably helps to prevent the pilot from stalling a blade with an overly-aggressive control input.

OTOH, it probably DOESN'T prevent stalling a blade in a violent PPO. The force applied to the spindle by the pitching airframe is so great that the spindle bolt may bend and/or the teeter stops may distort, allowing the retreating blade to stall and strike the tail or prop.

I'm indebted to Chuck Beaty and Greg Gremminger for much of this analysis.
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
4,461
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 472 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
I don't know if in a bad flapping take off condition the retreating blade is stalled or not. What I know is that the entire required flapping movement cannot be achieved, and consequently the dissymmetry of lift is not cancelled.

Define "bad flapping takeoff condition"
If you are saying this is where retreating blade cuts the tail or prop blade or flips over in all new production designs then its not just hitting the stops, its retreating blade stall that has happened
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
4,461
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 472 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
"Big pressure" is a rather imprecise term...
Can you (or anyone reading this) explain why a hard left bank might cause that?
Would it be less likely in a hard right bank?

The blades are being loaded so they may go out of track and stick may shake more but beyond that I do not understand what he is describing.
Jean Claude may opine better.
Perhaps the guy was not a smooth pilot and ham fisted like many GA airplane pilots are coming into gyroplanes and he moved the stick so fast that the rotor loosely bound to airframe lagged behind. That may create this temporarily but I would take that dude for some lessons in finesse because he/she lacks it.
 
Last edited:

Jean Claude

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
2,364
Location
Centre FRANCE
Aircraft
I piloted gliders C800, Bijave, C 310, airplanes Piper J3 , PA 28, Jodel D117, DR 220, Cessna 150, C
Total Flight Time
About 500 h (FW + ultra light)
When a rotor undergo a continuous rate of roll, it is because the blades produces the necessary cyclic forces, i.e that the control plane precededs the tip path plane with an angle proportional to the rate (fig 1).

When the pilot wants to obtain a continuous roll rate of the aircraft, he tilts the control plane. The roll rate is then constant when the tip plane is symmetrical (fig2)

If the flapping stops have a smaller margin than the control plane stops (*), then they can hit it, but this is safe because here it is only the hand force that pushes the flapping stops against the blades.

(*) The margins of the flapping stops are different between the right and left sides due to the transverse flapping angle b1


Sans titre.png
 
Last edited:

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
1,798
Location
Clermont, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
450
I think it hilarious that Jean Claude, with over thirteen years on the forum and 2,359 always incisive postings, is still given the soubriquet "Junior Member". I am not sure why I am a "Super Member", but some admin person certainly ought to award that to him.
 
Last edited:

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,419
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Have been following this discussion with great interest. Some great information.

Wryly amused at the earlier description of the so-called 'simple' aerodynamics of gyro rotors.

Yes, we should all know the main causes of blade flap/sailing.

Yes, we should know the indications of blade sail/flap.

Yes, we all should know how to avoid, and corrective actions if encountered.

But I still feel personally that gyro aerodynamics is not simple, and always fully understood by many gyro pilots
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
4,461
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 472 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
Have been following this discussion with great interest. Some great information.

Wryly amused at the earlier description of the so-called 'simple' aerodynamics of gyro rotors.

Yes, we should all know the main causes of blade flap/sailing.

Yes, we should know the indications of blade sail/flap.

Yes, we all should know how to avoid, and corrective actions if encountered.

But I still feel personally that gyro aerodynamics is not simple, and always fully understood by many gyro pilots

I still have not seen anything that shows me they are extremely complex in their effect. Blade sailing is always due to retreating blade stall. You cannot go hitting your tail and chop your prop without stalling the retreating blade after first 75 to 100 rotor RPM. Simple.
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
4,461
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 472 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes
When a rotor undergo a continuous rate of roll, it is because the blades produces the necessary cyclic forces, i.e that the control plane precededs the tip path plane with an angle proportional to the rate (fig 1).

When the pilot wants to obtain a continuous roll rate of the aircraft, he tilts the control plane. The roll rate is then constant when the tip plane is symmetrical (fig2)

If the flapping stops have a smaller margin than the control plane stops (*), then they can hit it, but this is safe because here it is only the hand force that pushes the flapping stops against the blades.

(*) The margins of the flapping stops are different between the right and left sides due to the transverse flap angle b1


View attachment 1155117

Yup sloppy technique but nothing bad will happen. Just shows your piloting technique is not smooth
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,419
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
I still have not seen anything that shows me they are extremely complex in their effect.
You're "...in their effect." Rather alters what I have said.
 

Kevin_Richey

Yamaha gyro...Oregon, USA
Staff member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
2,713
Location
AZ
I think it hilarious that Jean Claude, with over thirteen years on the forum and 2,359 always incisive postings, is still given the soubriquet "Junior Member". I am not sure why I am a "Super Member", but some admin person certainly ought to award that to him.
A prior-iteration rotary wing forum software initially labeled all new members as JM. Then, after reaching various numbers of postings made by that forum member, the forum "upgraded" their forum subtitle labels. That feature disappeared a long time ago, but the ability to change it to what we wish it to read was also left in the dust.

The same situation was w/ anyone who donated $ to the operating costs, such as "Gold Supporter".
 

Aerofoam

Active Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
137
Location
Az.
Aircraft
Pteradactyl, AC 447/503, too many UAVs
Total Flight Time
Over 3k....(From the ground !)
I'm on another forum that uses the same software, but has some differences, the label can be changed to anything by the member once they are no longer a newbie. It also doesn't automatically set "Watch" to any thing you reply to.
But it's basically the same, I suppose those features are chosen by the admins.
 
Top