Blade flap incident reporting?

Vance

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Do I need to report a blade sail incident that damages the rotor blades or the empenage?

§ 830.5 Immediate notification.

The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,[1] when:

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:

(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;

(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury or illness;

(3) Failure of any internal turbine engine component that results in the escape of debris other than out the exhaust path;

(4) In-flight fire;

(5) Aircraft collision in flight;

(6) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed $25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value in the event of total loss, whichever is less.

(7) For large multiengine aircraft (more than 12,500 pounds maximum certificated takeoff weight):

(i) In-flight failure of electrical systems which requires the sustained use of an emergency bus powered by a back-up source such as a battery, auxiliary power unit, or air-driven generator to retain flight control or essential instruments;

(ii) In-flight failure of hydraulic systems that results in sustained reliance on the sole remaining hydraulic or mechanical system for movement of flight control surfaces;

(iii) Sustained loss of the power or thrust produced by two or more engines; and

(iv) An evacuation of an aircraft in which an emergency egress system is utilized.

(8) Release of all or a portion of a propeller blade from an aircraft, excluding release caused solely by ground contact;

(9) A complete loss of information, excluding flickering, from more than 50 percent of an aircraft's cockpit displays known as:

(i) Electronic Flight Instrument System (EFIS) displays;

(ii) Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (EICAS) displays;

(iii) Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitor (ECAM) displays; or

(iv) Other displays of this type, which generally include a primary flight display (PFD), primary navigation display (PND), and other integrated displays;

(10) Airborne Collision and Avoidance System (ACAS) resolution advisories issued when an aircraft is being operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan and compliance with the advisory is necessary to avert a substantial risk of collision between two or more aircraft.

(11) Damage to helicopter tail or main rotor blades, including ground damage, that requires major repair or replacement of the blade(s);

(12) Any event in which an operator, when operating an airplane as an air carrier at a public-use airport on land:

(i) Lands or departs on a taxiway, incorrect runway, or other area not designed as a runway; or

(ii) Experiences a runway incursion that requires the operator or the crew of another aircraft or vehicle to take immediate corrective action to avoid a collision.

(b) An aircraft is overdue and is believed to have been involved in an accident.
 
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bugflyer

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I would think not since they would have said rotorcraft instead of helicopter.

smiles,
Charles
 

Abid

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LOL. So its Helicopter and not rotorcraft and that's why it does not need to be reported.
Obviously this is a lawyer's play on words.
Part 27 certification is also only for helicopters if you read carefully. You can't even apply to gyroplanes as they won't meet the requirements as they can't. CAR was the last certification standard with gyroplanes in it.
 

Tyger

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You guys are kind of missing the point here. Remember that that long list is for "incidents", which is only when no flight was being attempted, or if there is no substantial damage (or serious injury).

§ 830.2 Definitions. As used in this part the following words or phrases are defined as follows:

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. For purposes of this part, the definition of “aircraft accident” includes “unmanned aircraft accident,” as defined herein.
Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations.


If "substantial damage" (of any kind) occurs when flight is intended, that's an "accident", NOT an "incident", and it has to be reported even if it's not on that list. So if the blade flap causing substantial damage occurred during a takeoff attempt, it's an accident and must be reported, irrespective of what's on the list of serious incidents.
By definition, all items on that list are for things that may happen to an aircraft when no one is trying to fly it, OR if they occur during flight BUT there is no serious injury or substantial damage.

...notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office, when an aircraft accident OR any of the following listed serious incidents occur
 
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Brent Drake

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Do I need to report a blade sail incident that damages the rotor blades or the empenage?

§ 830.5 Immediate notification.

The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,[1] when:

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:

(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;

(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury or illness;

(3) Failure of any internal turbine engine component that results in the escape of debris other than out the exhaust path;

(4) In-flight fire;

(5) Aircraft collision in flight;

(6) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed $25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value in the event of total loss, whichever is less.

(7) For large multiengine aircraft (more than 12,500 pounds maximum certificated takeoff weight):

(i) In-flight failure of electrical systems which requires the sustained use of an emergency bus powered by a back-up source such as a battery, auxiliary power unit, or air-driven generator to retain flight control or essential instruments;

(ii) In-flight failure of hydraulic systems that results in sustained reliance on the sole remaining hydraulic or mechanical system for movement of flight control surfaces;

(iii) Sustained loss of the power or thrust produced by two or more engines; and

(iv) An evacuation of an aircraft in which an emergency egress system is utilized.

(8) Release of all or a portion of a propeller blade from an aircraft, excluding release caused solely by ground contact;

(9) A complete loss of information, excluding flickering, from more than 50 percent of an aircraft's cockpit displays known as:

(i) Electronic Flight Instrument System (EFIS) displays;

(ii) Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (EICAS) displays;

(iii) Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitor (ECAM) displays; or

(iv) Other displays of this type, which generally include a primary flight display (PFD), primary navigation display (PND), and other integrated displays;

(10) Airborne Collision and Avoidance System (ACAS) resolution advisories issued when an aircraft is being operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan and compliance with the advisory is necessary to avert a substantial risk of collision between two or more aircraft.

(11) Damage to helicopter tail or main rotor blades, including ground damage, that requires major repair or replacement of the blade(s);

(12) Any event in which an operator, when operating an airplane as an air carrier at a public-use airport on land:

(i) Lands or departs on a taxiway, incorrect runway, or other area not designed as a runway; or

(ii) Experiences a runway incursion that requires the operator or the crew of another aircraft or vehicle to take immediate corrective action to avoid a collision.

(b) An aircraft is overdue and is believed to have been involved in an accident.
Vance, a gyroplane blade is a major flying component. So it should be reported. Call your local FISDO and ask.
 

DavePA11

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Vance - Did you have damage to your rotor blades or is this a generic question? Hope all is okay!
 

Vance

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I asked the question because I personally often have challenges understanding the regulations and I felt it was an interesting topic.

I have not had a blade strike incident.

Before I became a flight instructor; like many pilots I had a copy of the FARs from the year I took my practical test and had not opened it since.

Now as a flight instructor I get a new copy as soon as it comes out and peruse the changes and try to imagine how they will affect me. I need to be able to show my clients where to find a particular regulation. I do not interpret the regulations for them and direct them to call their local FSDO.

Below is a good example of the challenge for me with the FARs; 830.2 appears to me to not be aligned with 830.5. I have discovered that different Flight Standards District Offices (FISDO) often have different interpretations of the Federal Aviation Regulations and it appears to me that the FAA recognizes because of the Consistency & Standardization Initiative.

There are often legal opinions about specific regulations and that is an important part of understanding the regulation.

Below is a quote form Aviation Legal Services.

"Unfortunately, quite a few airmen are either uncertain of or unfamiliar with the reporting requirements of part 830 and they don't discuss the issue with an aviation attorney prior to making the decision whether to report. This is unfortunate because some airmen have reported aircraft incidents when they weren't obligated to make the report and have drawn undue attention from the FAA. Knowing when you are required and when you are not can save an airman a lot of unnecessary grief."

I am not clear what "unnecessary grief" is.
I declared an emergency at Santa Maria (KSMX) and reported it to the NTSB. It consisted of a phone conversation, answering a few questions and did not require much time.

I had someone on this forum report an incident to the FAA that I was involved in at Mentone and again it was a phone conversation with no action. I made a new friend at the FAA and have since called him with questions and he always gets back to me with his opinions.

§ 830.2 Definitions.

As used in this part the following words or phrases are defined as follows:

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. For purposes of this part, the definition of “aircraft accident” includes “unmanned aircraft accident,” as defined herein.

Civil aircraft means any aircraft other than a public aircraft.

Fatal injury means any injury which results in death within 30 days of the accident.

Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations.

Operator means any person who causes or authorizes the operation of an aircraft, such as the owner, lessee, or bailee of an aircraft.

Public aircraft means an aircraft used only for the United States Government, or an aircraft owned and operated (except for commercial purposes) or exclusively leased for at least 90 continuous days by a government other than the United States Government, including a State, the District of Columbia, a territory or possession of the United States, or a political subdivision of that government. “Public aircraft” does not include a government-owned aircraft transporting property for commercial purposes and does not include a government-owned aircraft transporting passengers other than: transporting (for other than commercial purposes) crewmembers or other persons aboard the aircraft whose presence is required to perform, or is associated with the performance of, a governmental function such as firefighting, search and rescue, law enforcement, aeronautical research, or biological or geological resource management; or transporting (for other than commercial purposes) persons aboard the aircraft if the aircraft is operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States. Notwithstanding any limitation relating to use of the aircraft for commercial purposes, an aircraft shall be considered to be a public aircraft without regard to whether it is operated by a unit of government on behalf of another unit of government pursuant to a cost reimbursement agreement, if the unit of government on whose behalf the operation is conducted certifies to the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration that the operation was necessary to respond to a significant and imminent threat to life or property (including natural resources) and that no service by a private operator was reasonably available to meet the threat.

Serious injury means any injury which:

(1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date of the injury was received;

(2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose);

(3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage;

(4) involves any internal organ; or

(5) involves second- or third-degree burns, or any burns affecting more than 5 percent of the body surface.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.
 
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WaspAir

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The substantial damage definition appears to omit gyro rotor blades in a ground strike, but if there is empennage damage as proposed above in the original question , that is NOT exempted. If you need a major repair or replacement for your tailfeathers, it's an accident and must be reported.

As I have argued elsewhere on this forum, section 11 under incidents does not literally apply but the spirit of that rule urges reporting. There is no rational basis for distinguishing helicopters from gyros for reporting purposes, and the wording is likely an oversight.

P.S. bend your mast with a blade strike, and it's an accident to report.
 
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DavePA11

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Unnecessary grief is drawing undue attention to yourself to a government agency which itself has different interpretation of the regulations so ramifications can also be very different. Loss of license, etc… Think this is commonly understood. Not to mention all the other scrutiny of logs, etc. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that if not needed?
 
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Vance

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Unnecessary grief is drawing undue attention to yourself to a government agency which itself has different interpretation of the regulations so ramifications can also be very different. Loss of license, etc… Think this is commonly understood. Not to mention all the other scrutiny of logs, etc. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that if not needed?
It appears from what you write I have an uncommon understanding.

I feel I have a good working relationship with the FAA and have had mostly positive interactions with them.

I find value in looking through the FAA's window.

People are still getting hurt from stupid pilot tricks.
 

WaspAir

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Unnecessary grief is drawing undue attention to yourself to a government agency which itself has different interpretation of the regulations so ramifications can also be very different. Loss of license, etc… Think this is commonly understood. Not to mention all the other scrutiny of logs, etc. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that if not needed?
The NTSB's mission is, as their name states, safety. They are not out to make grief, necessary or otherwise, for pilots, and they serve that laudable mission best when they get information from the field. On a spectrum of value vs. annoyance, they are closer to the National Weather Service end than the Internal Revenue Service end.
 

Tyger

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Of course the NTSB and the FAA are separate entities...
 

Tyger

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Below is a good example of the challenge for me with the FARs; 830.2 appears to me to not be aligned with 830.5.
Please explain what you mean by "not aligned". They seem perfectly well aligned to me.
 

WaspAir

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Of course the NTSB and the FAA are separate entities..i
Yes, and they don't get along all that well, with the FAA often rejecting NTSB recommendations. NTSB doesn't have the regulation making authority that FAA does, so they only make suggestions based on analysis of their accident data.

Accident / incident reports go to the NTSB, not the FAA. These are separate from the voluntary ASRS submissions that one could send through NASA.
 

Vance

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Please explain what you mean by "not aligned". They seem perfectly well aligned to me.

from 830.5
(11) Damage to helicopter tail or main rotor blades, including ground damage, that requires major repair or replacement of the blade(s);

From from 830.2 definitions.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.
 

Philbennett

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I suspect we go down a path of spirit of reporting verse the letter of the wording of reporting. In the UK one pilot suggested he avoided reporting a blade strike which destroyed the blades, tail plane, twisted the mast and sundry items because as he intended to be just wheel balancing no flight was intended. Of course it also meant few people understand what snagged him or could take the cheap lesson.
 

Mayfield

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from 830.5
(11) Damage to helicopter tail or main rotor blades, including ground damage, that requires major repair or replacement of the blade(s);

From from 830.2 definitions.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.
This discussion reminds me of the arguments between constitutional scholars. As for me, I guess I'm not a "literalist".

If I poke a blade into the hangar wall and damage the blade, I won't report it. If I sail a blade, hit something, etc, I'll report it.

All that being said; it's a pity the regulation isn't written more clearly.

Jim
 
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