Band Brakes

[GyroRon]

Brian, just use your eyes to check it and even better just push the throttle back to make sure it is closed. It is a shame what happened to Chuck, but it was so very preventable. We could come up with a zillion ideas to keep this from happening again, everything from electronic safety systems on the throttle - a interlock system - to retractable wheel chocks, to a buzzer that goes off, you name it....

Just don't loose sight of KISS. Do you know what that stands for?

Best way to keep what happened to Chuck from happening again is to treat the machine like you would a loaded gun. Alot of us here are Gun Nuts and as such most of us here know not to handle a loaded gun without making sure the safety is on and there is no round in the chamber. And we all know to be very careful, it could fire and kill us or someone else nearby. A gyro is the same thing. Just pay attention and double check things like " is the throttle closed ? " before attempting to start the engine.

the best thing is a little piece of paper called a Checklist. Make a good checklist and follow it and all will be ok.

Hope you don't feel I am jumping on you Brian, I am not. It is just that the obvious hasn't been said yet, since our friend Chuck had the accident.

 

[banaari]

Suggest a Dead Man's control

Suggest a Dead Man's control

Forgive the title, I'm not trying to be macabre here, but I think I'll be going for some sort of switch arrangement in which the main kill switch would be left in the KILL position, but the engine could be started so long as another, momentary-acting switch was held ON.

Arranged such that it could not be reached from anything other than a safe place (consistent with still being able to pull-start); i.e. the instant you let go, or fell, the engine would cut out.

 

[Brian Jackson]

Brian, just use your eyes to check it and even better just push the throttle back to make sure it is closed. It is a shame what happened to Chuck, but it was so very preventable. We could come up with a zillion ideas to keep this from happening again, everything from electronic safety systems on the throttle - a interlock system - to retractable wheel chocks, to a buzzer that goes off, you name it....

Just don't loose sight of KISS. Do you know what that stands for?

Best way to keep what happened to Chuck from happening again is to treat the machine like you would a loaded gun. Alot of us here are Gun Nuts and as such most of us here know not to handle a loaded gun without making sure the safety is on and there is no round in the chamber. And we all know to be very careful, it could fire and kill us or someone else nearby. A gyro is the same thing. Just pay attention and double check things like " is the throttle closed ? " before attempting to start the engine.

the best thing is a little piece of paper called a Checklist. Make a good checklist and follow it and all will be ok.

Hope you don't feel I am jumping on you Brian, I am not. It is just that the obvious hasn't been said yet, since our friend Chuck had the accident.

Hi Ron.
I never thought you were jumping on me, even when you... what was it... something about a KISS? (there's a joke in there somewhere)

Seriously though, yours is great advice. I agree with the whole "Keep It Simple Stupid" strategy, and agree that we should all use preflight checklists RELIGIOUSLY for any aircraft. Hell, I made a pre-saw checklist for a table saw because I value my digits.

My thinking was the same as yours in your above analogy about gun safety... Avoidable accidents still happen, but even handguns have a safety switch built into the trigger mechanism to help prevent lapses in memory and HUMAN error... "human" being the operative word.

In my table saw example, I was nearely impaled by a kicked-back board even though I had a checklist in front of me. I completely agree with you and highly value your input as the accomplished airman you are. But even a novice must recognize that we're not always at our mental best every day, and even the most experienced pilot will occasionally miss something. It's during those times that accidents happen. In Chuck's case it was lethal.

What about a little spring-loaded pin that catches when you pull the throttle back to near-idle that is easily released by your pinky only if your hand is on the throttle? That way the pin is automatically engaged when you throttle back to kill the engine after landing. The next time you start the engine, it's still engaged and won't go past idle. That may not be the right design, but it's the kind of KISS engineering that might have prevented many an ultralight and gyro pilot from losing their life and/or ship as a result of a split-second lapse in pre-flight concentration. Lord knows we have enough spectators around to distract us.

With sincerest respect,
Brian Jackson

 

[GyroRon]

I brought up KISS cause we don't want to make our machine overly complex, expensive or heavy. And cause anything added that has the ability to kill the engine - besides the kill switch we HAVE to have - is one more thing that can fail and cause a unexpected landing.

I don't know anything more than you guys know about what happened to Chuck. My guess is he had drove to this fly in that morning and had unloaded his gyro, put his blades on and was in a hurry to fly. He probably had lot's of spectators - since it wasn't a gyro fly in and he was probably the only one there with a gyro, and from experience when your the only gyro at a fly in you always have a crowd of people distracting you. I believe he probably just got in a hurry and forgot to check the throttle before pulling the cord. I am sure he wasn't using a checklist - and most of us don't - He just forgot a simple step in the starting procedure. It proved fatal and that sucks.

I am sure if enough thought is put into it, a simple system can be made to insure the gyro won't start unless at idle, sorta like most straight drive cars these days won't start unless the clutch pedal is pressed down while turning the key.

the nice thing about the ignition on most two strokes you Bee drivers will be using, is the engine wants to always run. The kill switch is just a switch to Ground the kill wires. So if the wire fails, or the connector fails, or the switch goes bad, chances are the engine will keep running, which is good! you want the engine to keep running if you up flying when the failure occurs. So my thoughts are, anything else you add to try to kill the engine will take away the redundancy of this system. Twice that I can remember I have landed in a ultralight airplane, or Rotax powered gyro and went to turn off the engine and it wouldn't because the switch or wire failed or a connector came off. I would rather deal with a engine that I have to make quit on the ground than one that could quit on me in the air without my making it quit!

 

[banaari]

If the kill circuit is a short-to-ground mechanism, then the DMC (momentary OFF) goes in series with the main kill switch, and the failure mode is then engine ON.

 

[Brian Jackson]

Point taken, Ron. I was suggesting something purely mechanical... a little latch on the throttle arm itself that, when drawn back to idle, would catch and not go forward until the pilot put his hand on it. We're talking "paper clip" technology. But something that light, simple and seemingly stupid may have prevented deaths.

Nonetheless I'm still learning here, so I'm relying on you and others to bounce ideas off of.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

 

[GyroRon]

Maybe something like that could be designed and would Work Brian. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. Start a new thread with whatever you brainstorm and come up with.

 

[GyroRon]

My throttle is set - and I set all of my throttles this way - to stay put where I leave it. I even use the friction lock on the throttle in my Pacer to always have some resistance to movement at all times. This way as long as I remember to check that the throttle is closed before starting, the only way it would be open is if someone moved it there while I was pulling the cord.

When I am ready to start my drill is always the same.

1. I go to the right side of the gyro.

2. I turn the ignition switches to the ON position

3. I look at the throttle and take my hand and press it to make sure it is always fully back to the closed position - the throttle is beside the seat on the left side, but easily reachable from standing on the right side of the seat where I am at during this.

4. I then look down behind the seat, beside the mast, to make sure my in line fuel valve is in the open position

5. I then pull out and push in my fuel Primer - this squirts raw fuel into the intake manifold and takes the place of Chokes and makes the engine much easier to start - The Primer is located on the engine mount frame right under the carbs

6. Then I do one more look for anyone that might be close to the gyro to make sure they are out of the way, I yell Clear Prop and then grab the pull handle and give it a healthy pull. I am standing with one leg in front of the landing gear and one beside the tire. I am not behind the landing gear!

7. Once started - sometimes it take 2 or 3 pulls - I put my left hand on the seatback to keep the gyro from rolling and then climb up into the gyro and sit down. I am extra careful not to knock the throttle with my feet or legs as I enter the gyro - from the right side. I put my feet on the brakes and put on my seatbelt, take one more look for people or other vehicles, and then off I go.

I recently installed a clutch in my gearbox that allows my prop to sit still when the engine is at idle. This helps because before, the gyro would want to roll forwards slightly even at idle and I had to hold it from moving as I got in. That could be tricky to do on Pavement as it would really want to move then. If I hadn't installed the clutch, I would have rearranged everything - Primer etc... - and routed the pull cord to the mast so I could start from the seat. I wanted to avoid mounting it there cause it is hard to get a strong pull pulling from the seat, so that is one main reason I got the clutch.

BTW, Chuck Irby had the same clutch in his machine. but of course his throttle wasn't at idle so as soon as the engine fired up the clutch locked up and the gyro went forward.

 

[Brian Jackson]

Maybe something like that could be designed and would Work Brian. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. Start a new thread with whatever you brainstorm and come up with.

I will Ron. It's amazing how many brainstorms lead back to complication and user-ability. As an engineer I appreciate designs that service all needs with the fewest parts or instruction. This problem presents itself as the classic example: a need for a simple solution to a complicated problem.

I have some ideas, and will present them here in 3 days or so. I'll start a new thread, and hope you'll share your knowledge and input.

Would love to share a cup of coffee with you soon.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

 

[GyroRon]

Don't drink Coffee, but we could drink Dr. Peppers and smoke cigarettes!

 

[Udi]

Brian - John (banaari) had a good suggestion. The kill switch he is talking about is a popular safety device in ultralights. You can even buy a mast-mounted spring-loaded switch from LEAF or other ultralight suppliers.

In essence, the Rotax engine kill switch is configured with an open circuit for "ON" and a closed circuit (short) for OFF. The mast switch is a spring-loaded, normally closed switch, which basically means that when you let go of it, it closes the circuit and cuts the engine off. If you slip, fall, forget the throttle on high, see someone else getting close to the prop, whatever, all you have to do it let go of the switch and the engine quits.

Your panel-mounted switch is connected in series with the mast switch. So, when you start the engine, your panel-mounted switch is in the OFF position. After you've started the engine, you would have to move the panel switch to ON **before** letting go off the mast switch, or the engine would quit.

You may still be able to screw up by forgetting the panel switch in the ON position, and forgetting the throttle on high, but I believe the likelihood of this happening is much smaller than the likelihood of just forgetting the throttle on high. And every time you are starting the engine, you would have to press the mast switch, which would jog your memory to look at the panel switch and check the throttle.

Udi
p.s. I think we have hijacked this thread...

 

[Alan Coats]

Udi,

The original question was about putting brakes on my Bee. After a lot of great discussion, the thread came back around to the reason I thought I would need brakes in the first place (I also learned that I want to move the starter rope exit back to the right side of the gyro).

Great work, guys!

Brian -

How about a kill switch mounted on the landing gear strut, right about where you might put your hand to steady yourself when starting the engine? Seems like a good kill switch would do more to overcome a brain fart that lets you start your engine at full throttle than a throttle interlock would.

Alan

 

[Brian Jackson]

Brian -

How about a kill switch mounted on the landing gear strut, right about where you might put your hand to steady yourself when starting the engine? Seems like a good kill switch would do more to overcome a brain fart that lets you start your engine at full throttle than a throttle interlock would.

Absolutely. I'm sure there's a few good locations, and probably a pre-existing system already in use somewhere. It's just a matter of finding the information.

 

[scottessex]

Band Brakes II

Band Brakes II

Here are a few pictures of my brake parts.

I made the pedals out of mild steel and TIG welded them.
The wheelbarrow wheels had no provision for mounting a drum, so I welded a flange onto it and I am using go-kart band brake.

 

[GyroRon]

Scott, nice looking brake pedals but I think you might could have done it better. In my experience, it is easiest to have the brakes either on a lever and tied together, so if you pull on lever both brakes are put on, or done as toe or heel brakes, But mounted high or close enough so as to be able to use them and the rudder pedals at the same time.

Maybe the pictures don't show the jist of it well, but I think you will have to take your feet off the rudder to work the brakes. might make for shaky handling....

 

[scottessex]

Well you are right, but I can turn them around and they are the same height as the rudder pedals, so I could reach them with my toes. That's why it sucks not building from plans, there is alot of R&D to do that takes time.
Does a dominator use toe brakes? or heel brakes?
I am thinking about using the main wheel brakes for steering, but I am not sure yet.

 

[GyroRon]

The dominator uses Heel brakes. Alot of dominator pilots though... can't seem to use them as they were designed and they drop their feet down and use the brakes with their toes. Once learned how to use them properly, they work great.

 

[GyroRon]

Oh well, I couldn't find a good picture of my pedals. Sorry

 

[Brent_Brown]

That's why it sucks not building from plans.

No scott that is what makes it FUN.

can you feel the love?

 

[scottessex]

The suck part is not being able to fly. I don't mind building.