Bad news on transition training

Sv.grainne

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Kerrville, Texas
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Aviomania, G1sB Genesis
Thought I had worked through my issues moving through 2 place training and transition to single place. CFI who I had lined up backed out today so here we go again. Friends in the area are going to help so will see how this plays out over the next 6 months or so.

Comments appreciated.
 
Sorry to hear that Bobby.

Life always keeps a few of these dips just to keep life interesting. Hope you can sort that out without too much agro.

Doubt you’ll have much trouble transitioning, be lighter on the controls, more responsive, and you’ll probably be lower to the ground when landing.
 
Think I've worked out a solution. Will post details once I'm further along. Have a friend near here who owns/flys 3 gyros who is going to help. Another friend is going to help as he has done the transition and my current CFI is willing to look at the solution!

Bobby
 
Thought I had worked through my issues moving through 2 place training and transition to single place. CFI who I had lined up backed out today so here we go again. Friends in the area are going to help so will see how this plays out over the next 6 months or so.

Comments appreciated.

I gave the matter much thought and made the decision that I am not the right person to transition you because my experience in flying light singles is very limited, and I must confess that I do not have the expertise to test fly anyone else's gyro and risk balling it up. It happens.

Several years ago, I test flew a newly built tandem Dominator for a friend, and because I was unfamiliar with the machine, I ended up hitting the rotors on the tail and scoring/gouging them during take off. That cost me $2500 to replace his Dragon Wings. I had posted it on this forum.

I know of another CFI that signed off a student that had trained with another CFI, to Solo his Dominator single place, and the student crashed fatally. The CFI that signed off the solo was on remedial training for a year with FAA from what I heard.

I would do it for a student that I train from the start, and watch the build process closely with other club members here at Anahuac.

Best person to transition you is the CFI that trains you now, as he/she knows all about your performance.

I sincerely wish you all the best in your build.
 
Obviously the CFI that trains you should sign you off for solo. If he/she won’t. No one else should. Now training in a 2 seat trainer that’s heavy and then going to a very lite single, I can see why that CFI won’t sign you off for solo. This problem exists in trikes and airplanes as well. You train in a CT does not mean you can solo an Aerolite 103. No CFI will take that chance. It’s way too risky. I know this problem will remain and is a hinderance to those who want to start out in very lite single seaters. There is going to be a hard way to get training and soloing in them.
 
In the UK the route/syllabus to a single seat PPL includes instruction on both two seat and single seat machines, and in most cases this would be from a single instructor.

Unfortunately there are very few Instructors in the UK who are either capable of, or willing to do this, and few who seem to be willing to become able to do this.

I know of only one person right now who wants to become such an instructor.

One instructor who not so long ago took his single seat conversion, and has expressed an interest in getting a single.

Not a great situation for singles over here either.
 
I had the same issue getting signed off to fly the Sportcopter M912 single seat. Ended up working with two CFIs and one allowed me to solo his dual seat MTO to get the feel of how the single seat gyro would handle. I doubt this happens often with other CFIs.

Hindsight, I would recommend any new Gyro pilot train in same make and model as they plan to solo for the first time or as close as possible. Buy a used dual seat and get training in similar gyro to get your ticket. After you build up time in the dual seat gyro sell it and then pursue the single seat gyro.

I have seen so many accidents when a new pilot trains in dual seat aircraft then solos in single seat ultralight or trike. So many differences in performance and controls for a new pilot to take on when soloing for first time.

Fixed wing students almost always solo on the same plane they train in, and wouldn’t make sense for them to solo in different make and model...

Go buy a used AR-1 and get some local training in Florida. Have some fun building up time safely then sell and build/buy your single seat gyro.

You may think this is more expensive path, but consider cost of single seat to build/buy and then add 50% more in cash reserves to fix it when you crash it during the transition from dual seat gyro to soloing the single seat. Happens.

Dave
 
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Obviously the CFI that trains you should sign you off for solo. If he/she won’t. No one else should. Now training in a 2 seat trainer that’s heavy and then going to a very lite single, I can see why that CFI won’t sign you off for solo. This problem exists in trikes and airplanes as well. You train in a CT does not mean you can solo an Aerolite 103. No CFI will take that chance. It’s way too risky. I know this problem will remain and is a hinderance to those who want to start out in very lite single seaters. There is going to be a hard way to get training and soloing in them.

I feel the solo sign off is an important part of the learning process.

It is not simply permission to go fly on your own.

When I endorse someone for solo privileges it has wind and airport restrictions until I can see that they are ready to expand their privileges. I want to see their planning for any cross country flight and approve it on the morning of the flight.

If a CFI has no experience with the client’s aircraft it would be impractical for him to transition his client into the aircraft and in my opinion would be would be a disservice to the client. There are many CFIs in the USA that have very limited gyroplane experience outside of their training aircraft. Gyroplanes don’t all fly the same and even the same model doesn’t always fly the same.

I won’t give a solo endorsement until I have seen a client demonstrate proficiency in my training aircraft and I have had time flying their gyroplane so I understand the differences and I can manage the transition well. He also needs to have passed my pre-solo knowledge test.

If a client comes to me from another instructor for any reason I still need to see them demonstrate proficiency. Just seeing it in their log book is not sufficient.

This may add expense just as traveling does so I feel the CFI should go over all this at the beginning of training so the client can make the decision on what is cost effective and what works for them.

I have flown with 41 certificated flight instructors and they are not all the same.

Find one that is a match for your learning style and intentions so learning to fly is a joy.
 

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I like Dave's advice above. A purchase of a second hand two place gyroplane will reduce training costs and if you take care of it generally does not depreciate that much in a year.
Practice in a docile two place machine may smooth the bumps in your early gyroplane adventures.
 
How the systems vary from one country to another. Here in France a permit for an autogire (gyro) covers us for single and double seater. The reality is having learnt in a double seater, one is alone in the single seater and apart from talking on the radio, not sure how effective that would be in a crisis, or rapid prayers by the instructor on the ground. There seems to be little that anyone can do to further train a pilot in a single seater that cannot be effected in a twin. True, the single seater is far more agile but the first time I took off in my instructors machine without him behind me WOW !!!

Firstly was the heart beating out of my chest, the sweaty palms with a tell tale tremble. The talking to myself on the headset, hope to god I had not pressed the PTT, going through every step of the take off remembering my instructors warning she will jump off the ground and will float much longer on finals. I had 300+ hours in my flexwing that helped me appreciate these factors to a degree. BUT, the beast tried to kill me, leaping up into the air like a bucking bronco, quickly back under control but in that moment, as with every newbie pilot, I was alone.

Remembering that experience helped me when I first took to the air with my Deluc amateur build, she is very light and has a BMW K1200RS engine so mistakes are only half an inch away on the throttle.

I struggle to understand the specific extra training needed for a single, extended training with a good CFI surely should fit the bill.

phil (de fer)
 
I feel the solo sign off is an important part of the learning process.

Find one that is a match for your learning style and intentions so learning to fly is a joy.
Vance:

I agree, the solo sign off is an important part of the learning process, and my intent was not to simply seek permission to go fly on my own.

Agree, but the CFI that I chose for my transition training owns the very machine that I am looking to transition to. I have arranged to have a third party test fly my mchine and has even volunteered to flyy off the 40 hours as necessary.

I would not expect any CFI to give a solo endorsement until a client has demonstrated proficiency in training in the CFI aircraft. I also think that the pre-solo knowledge test is a must.

I spoke with the intended transition CFI about my plans and indicated that I was perfectly willing to spend whatever time was necessary in a new training environment with the instructor so as to demonstrate proficiency.

I understood the added expense and travel time requirements so this was not an issue. I even travelled the 4.5 hours to visit the facility and instructor to ascertain the situation.

I thought I had found a CFI that was a match for my learning style and intentions so that the transition to my single place machine would be a joy!

That was not the case and was why I posted my frustration. Purchasing a used 2 place machine for me was never an option. I am training and will transition properly to my single place machine.
 
I thought I had found a CFI that was a match for my learning style and intentions so that the transition to my single place machine would be a joy!

That was not the case and was why I posted my frustration. Purchasing a used 2 place machine for me was never an option. I am training and will transition properly to my single place machine.

I did train one pilot to transition from Powered parachute to his single seat Air Command. He did 7.5 hours dual with me in my AR1. According to his learning style, he thought he was all set and did not need any more training, irrespective of what I thought. Guess what? He balled up his gyro by trying to do some wheel balancing on his own. Just before he crashed, he called me up on the phone and I categorically told him that if there were cross winds to not attempt anything.

We have two club members with singles who trained with Steve McGowan, and both crashed their UL machines.

Moreover, if I recall correctly, your visit was to see my build with the Rotax 912 ULS. The idea of perhaps doing the transition came up when you came and visited us at Anahuac. At the time, I had not thought out the process in more detail, and the responsibility involved.

I have not even flown with you, so I do not know your learning style. I'm sure your existing instructor can still make your transition a joyful experience if it is done right. I'm just not comfortable taking on the responsibility, as my original purpose in becoming a CFI was to assist Danny and Mike to train pilots for the AR1 for a sport pilot certificate, as they were the dealers in this region.
 
To perhaps give some insight into the training that would be done for a student who wishes to graduate as a single seat gyro pilot in the UK. This is the syllabus in Section 44 of the CAA regulations for gyros.

The course is to cater specifically for a student who wishes only to fly a single seat machine. This allows him some financial relief in flying either a cheaper single belonging to the Instructor...or his own machine during the training. The alternative is for the student to complete the course in a two seat machine, and then to find an Instructor who will train him to fly single seat machines.

The reality is that in the UK I only know of one Instructor who does either of these courses. This does not mean that there aren’t others simply that I do not know of any others.


The training in the two seat machine is the Instructors machine. TS
The training that is done in the single seat machine will either be the Instructors...or the students. SS

If the student’s the Instructor would have either have the differences certification for that type, or would have to have completed a conversion training on the student’s machine

Appendix B- Syllabus for PPL(G). Single Seat.

TS indicates for the Single seat syllabus but performed in a Two seat gyro with Instructor.
SS indicates exercise is done in, and specifically for single seat machine.

Section 1: Two Seat. Basic Flying.

Ex 1a TS: Air Experience Flight.
Ex 1b TS: Effects of controls.
Ex 1c TS: Startup, Taxi and Shutdown. Ex 1d TS: Basic Flying Consolidation.


Section 2: Two Seat. Upper Air Work.

Ex 2a TS: Fly a straight track at constant altitude.
Ex 2b TS: Increase and decrease speed at constant altitude. Ex 2c TS: Medium turns at constant altitude.
Ex 2d TS: Climb and descend - straight,
Ex 2e TS: Climb and descend whilst turning,
Ex 2f TS: Fly the circuit pattern.
Ex 2g TS: Upper Air Work Consolidation


Section 3: Single Seat Introduction.

Ex 3a SS: Cockpit differences, external differences.
Ex 3b SS: Supervised Taxiing, tethered rotor, untethered, rotor control while taxiing.
Ex 3c SS: Pre-rotation with and without pre-rotator.
Ex 3d SS: Rotor acceleration, deceleration.
Ex 3e SS: Blade sailing, avoidance, recovery


Section 3: Two Seat. Rotor Management take offs and landings.

Ex 3a TS: Rotor management. Ex 3b TS: Take-offs.
Ex 3c TS: Landings.
Ex 3d TS: Hops.
Ex 3e TS: Circuit Consolidation.


Section 4: Single Seat. Wheel balancing.

Ex 4a SS: Moving off, rocking back to balance position.
Ex 4b SS: Power and stick control to maintain balance.
Ex 4c SS: Rotor control during balance. Accelerating, decelerating RRPM. Ex 4d SS: From wheel balancing to momentary lift off and settling back. Ex 4e SS: Progression from balancing to low hops.
Section 4: Two seat. Emergencies.
Ex 4a TS: Engine failure to touchdown at the airfield runway.
Ex 4b TS: Engine failure in the circuit unable to reach the runway.
Ex 4c TS: Engine failure after take-off.
Ex 4d TS: Other Emergencies. Fire, low fuel, checking a potential landing spot. Ex 4e TS: Unusual attitudes recognition of and recovery.
page54image1759304048

Section 5 SS. Take offs landings (Hops). Low hops, high hops, S turns, engine failure after TO. Circuits.
Ex 5a SS: Low hops.
Ex 5b SS: High hops.
Ex 5c SS: High hops with engine failure. Ex 5d SS: S turns along the runway.
Ex 5e SS: Cross wind hops.


Ex 6. Two seat and Single Seat: Solo flying.

Ex 6a TS: Pre solo check in two seater. Refresher on manoeuvres unusual attitudes emergencies.
Ex 6b SS: Solo in circuit.
Ex 6c TS: Local area check in two seater.
Ex 6d SS: Local area solo single seater.


Section 7 SS: Advanced Flying. Take offs, landings, slow flight, fast flight, zero airspeed descents, low flying.

Ex 7a TS: Demonstration and instruction of all advanced flying manoeuvres done in two seat. TS
Ex 7b SS: Observed exercises of short field TO
Ex 7c SS: Observed exercises of soft field TO.
Ex 7d SS: Observed exercises of slow and fast flight while holding constant altitude above the runway.
Ex 7e SS: Observed exercise of vertical descent and recovery.
Ex 7f SS: Observed exercise of landing into a specified restricted space.
Ex 7g SS: Observed exercise of symmetrical constant altitude figure of 8’s over a specified point.


Section 8 Two seater Cross Country Flying. Joining/Leaving procedures unfamiliar airfields, precautionary landings, pilotage and navigation, qualifying cross country flights.

Ex 8a TS: Pre-solo cross country flight demonstration and check by Instructor prior to sign off for solo X-C.
Ex 8b TS: Precautionary landing by student.
Ex 8c TS: Planning and navigation by student.
Ex 8d TS: Entering and leaving unfamiliar airfield. Ex 8e SS: Solo cross country flights.
Ex 8f SS: Qualifying solo cross country flights.


Section 9 General Flight Test.

Ex 9a SS: Pre GFT check.
The Theorectical Knowledge:
Air Law
Human Factors, Meteorology

Ex 9b SS: General Flight Test. Observed and conducted by examiner in two way contact from the ground.
 

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It sounds like Jetlag03 took the path I was recommending. Learn in dual seat Gyro, solo in same make/model dual gyro, gain experience flying the dual gyro as single pilot, and after your an experienced gyro pilot then transition to single seat gyro. I think this is best option for new student pilots.

The issue I have based on witnessing many accidents is training student pilots in higher performance dual aircraft then having student solo in their lower performance single seat aircraft. Too much of a change for new Student pilots.

If you are already an experience pilot flying lots of different aircraft then it’s not as big of a transition. Some experience pilots have the skill set to make transition flying different aircraft without any issues, but not so for new students without much flight time.

There was one student pilot that did a great job flying a Rotax 912 dual seat trainer, but when it was time to solo his under powered single seat aircraft he flew it like a high performance dual aircraft and ran into tops of trees on climb out. He just was flying his single seat aircraft as he was trained in the dual seat aircraft. He was lucky he didn’t kill himself dropping from 40’ high tree tops. After a year of fixing the single seat gyro, the Student tried again with the same instructor. The student did great flying the Rotax 912 based trainer, but once again transitioning to his own 2 cycle aircraft he almost crashed it into tree tops since the aircraft was much more agile and he kept over controlling it. Never was so happy to see someone land since I thought he was going to kill himself. It was hard to watch. The CFI had to make a tough decision to stop training this student.

Dave
 
Please do not misunderstand me, I believe in training, when I did mine in both flexwing and gyro I asked each instructor for ongoing training with a view to more advanced manouvres, not so that I could become an ace pilot, but, so that I could experience more extreme situations under the guidance and care of an experienced person.

My gyro training included near 5 hours extra training after my instructor said I was ready to be released. At least half of these hours were solo in his machine with him instructing my from the ground. Such as climb to xxft, engine to idle NOW ... now return safely and touch and go, etc etc with every sort of instruction, even such as on final and then he would call "aircraft just entered runway" and I had to make the appropriate decisions.

Here in France, and I guess in America, where we have the liberty to create our own machines which may vary greatly in their handling, in the UK as I understand it the range of single seaters is limited to the big manufacturers. If this is the case, these machines have already been designed to the n'th degree and should not be hiding any horrors regards handling.

I would be interested to hear, as a very new low hours pilot, from a CFI what specific instruction is carried out for a pilot in a single seater that could not be carried out in a two seater, excepting the fact there will be weight performance differences, which in general, we seem capable of adapting to when moving from one car to another.

P.S. I put forward the above not specifically as "my opinions" I am far too new to gyros to have fixed opinions, but more as subjects for discussions and debating points to try open up the subject.

phil (de fer)
 
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The student did great flying the Rotax 912 based trainer, but once again transitioning to his own 2 cycle aircraft he almost crashed it into tree tops since the aircraft was much more agile and he kept over controlling it.
You have given the No1 reason why it is so important to have observed wheel balancing exercises in a single seat gyro.

The controls are so much lighter, and the longitudinal stability is so much less, than in the much longer two seater, it is vital that the student be introduced to this slowly and in such a manner that he can learn...and demonstrate to his instructor that he has adapted to these lighter control inputs and will not over-control in flight before being allowed to simply get into the air where in is possible for a student who has not been taught this finer control to do just what you described.
 
You have given the No1 reason why it is so important to have observed wheel balancing exercises in a single seat gyro.

The controls are so much lighter, and the longitudinal stability is so much less, than in the much longer two seater, it is vital that the student be introduced to this slowly and in such a manner that he can learn...and demonstrate to his instructor that he has adapted to these lighter control inputs and will not over-control in flight before being allowed to simply get into the air where in is possible for a student who has not been taught this finer control to do just what you described.
Much the same with the first solo flight in a tandem, as much as my instructor explained and warned me about the liveliness and lightness of the controls, the reality is a real eye opener the first time, and as I mentioned previously, this is on the back of 300+ hours in flexwings where I had experience of differing weights of friends behind and the astounding differences that ambient temperature can make to performance.
 
what specific instruction is carried out for a pilot in a single seater that could not be carried out in a two seater, excepting the fact there will be weight performance differences, which in general, we seem capable of adapting to when moving from one car to another.
As a reasonably experienced pilot with experience on over 40 different types on fixed wing, gyros, gliders... and parachutes :) most of these handled differently.

It is easy even for experienced pilots to unconsciously get a ‘death grip’ on the stick, and over-control when the excitement level rises, adrenaline is pumping and critical stages in flight are being experienced.

One can get slightly behind and then find your inputs are aggravating rather than correcting what is happening and this is then exaggerates the immediate problem being faced.

Removing this completely from gyros I can give an example. Its a quiet day and I have time so please indulge me.

Dutch roll is a natural aerodynamic phenomenon in swept-wing aircraft. It is caused by the design having slightly weaker directional stability than lateral stability. The result is the tail of the airplane seeming to “wag” or move left and right with slight up and down motion.

In today’s airplanes this tendency is reduced in the design and with the installation of a yaw damper. The yaw damper senses the yawing motion then applies a small rudder input to counter it. As a result, the ride is smooth and comfortable.

The number of yaw dampers on an aircraft is an indication of the tendency of that aircraft to succumb to this phenomenon, and yaw dampers are generally found on turbine powered higher speed aircraft that also fly at higher altitudes. A yaw damper sometimes referred to as a stability augmentation system, is a system used to reduce or dampen the undesirable tendencies of an aircraft to oscillate in a repetitive rolling and yawing motion, the phenomenon known as the Dutch roll.

The Boeing 727 has two yaw dampers and during training the trainee is shown what happens when hand flying and these are disengaged at altitude and at cruise speed. At first all seems fine then imperceptibly at first then more noticeably the Dutch Roll starts, the tail is wagging and the wings are rolling.

The trainee begins to attempt to control this divergence, either by the use of rudder inputs, or by aileron inputs...or if he is really feeling confident with both. To his increasing dismay he will find that he seem to be making things worse and soon the simulator...they do not do this in the real aircraft...is rocking increasing violently from side to side until it is completely obvious to everyone inside (generally a pilot in command, first officer, flight engineer, the flight engineer Instructor, and the simulator instructor.) that control of the aircraft has been totally lost, will not be regained, and the plane will roll inverted.

At this point the sim instructor freezes the sim, it slowly levels itself and everybody who was being thrown violently around slowly gather themselves.

Above certain altitudes and speeds, control of the aircraft will be impossible, even for ace pilots, without the yaw dampers as the instability is too great.

The immediate emergency actions are to reduce speed drastically and immediately descend to a lower and more dense altitude.

It is a humbling and sometime frightening first time experience of over-controlling an aircraft to the point of total loss of control...and outside a simulator...swiftly followed by the uncontrolled descent and subsequent break-up of the plane.

Not many pilots outside the airlines or the military have the opportunity of experiencing the results of over-controlling in a simulator. To many the idea of over-controlling doesn’t sound too serious or dangerous until it happens in in a single seat gyro that has lifted off and now flying at 40+ knots and climbing. If it starts and the pilots now has a death grip on the stick and starts pumping, the instability situation rapidly deteriorates until................

Watch this take off. In the slow motion sequences see how he has begun violently pumping the stick. His brain has probably frozen and he is trying to control with the stick.

All he had to do was pull back the throttle and abort.


Imagine what would have happened if he was 20ft, 30ft, or more high and then started over-controlling.

PS the very long stick did not help, simply gave more throw for him to play with.
 
I have seen that video before from the bystander position but the onboard video is something else.

The death grip is something I am very familiar with and with my flexwing must have taken 50+ hours of flying her before I could really begin to realise, the more relaxed the grip the better the control.

Interesting that todays craft are all but impossible to fly without the aid and control of computers.

phil (de fer)
 
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