Back Country Gyro Ops. Equipment, mods, techniques.

[RogerB]

Interesting thread.
Solution exists.
Jean Michael has posted videos of his buddies simple teetering retrofittable gyro rotor head with sliding weight automatic pitch control for jump takeoffs.
His system is simple, elegant and verifiably works!
It doesnt give you a carter copter 150 foot vertical jump but more like 5 to 10 ft high, but for rough country? Your off the ground in 2 to 3 yards.
If Sportcopter made a version of this I would be flying it.

Links to the videos?

 

[BEN S]

Ask Jean, I don't remember...

 

[WaspAir]

Jump takeoff capability would really solve a lot of things, the problem is that there are no practical jump takeoff gyro designs that have really become mainstream and available for those who are not builder/designers like Dick DeGraw. This is probably because the increased complexity starts to blur the differences with helicopters, and then one may as well just get a helicopter. Waspair you may have more insight as to why jump takeoff designs have not become more mainstream.

The much beloved fixed collective teetering two blade rotor system has lots of baggage that people seem to accept without question, because it is the norm they know. The Sport Pilot limitations have reinforced this bias. All this rotor management, balancing on the mains, blade sailing "flap" risk, and uncounted scores of take-off accidents are the price of mechanical simplicity, and it's a big price. Add collective control, even if only two positions (pre-spin and flight) and that trouble all goes away. I could train a novice to do jump takeoffs in an A&S18A in just a few flight hours, with absolutely no need for taxiing endlessly up and down the runway, crow hops, or any of that stuff that would-be gyronauts spend so much of their time on. I would argue that it takes considerably less skill and training to jump an 18A safely than to manage a "normal" takeoff in a light sport gyro. There's certainly no need to nurse a rotor up to speed, develop a "feel" for increasing rotor rpm, worry about crosswind effects on the roll, struggle to stay off the back side of the curve, or any of that fuss when you pre-spin to 150%, push a button on the throttle, and leap directly into the wind with no ground roll. Looked at from the other side of the mainstream, it is truly amazing how much the typical gyro pilot puts up with to live with a design that is well known to be downright dangerous at low g. The tolerance for grief among gyro enthusiasts is astonishing to me.

Why not more mainstream? Fundamentally, building your own fully articulated rotor head is beyond the typical assemble-from-a-kit hobbyist, the light sport rules don't permit it, and the cost would of course be higher. Consequently, all these factors discourage and obscure whatever potential demand there might be out there, so manufacturers see no market and accordingly do no developing (I don't question that reasoning by manufacturers, but remain saddened by the consequences of it).

I often hear arguments of the tenor "why not just get a helicopter", which I attribute to ignorance (no offense intended, Loftus!). My analogy would be two friends who drive electric golf carts. One proposes to upgrade to Li-ion batteries instead of lead-acid in his cart. The other responds, "then you might as well buy a Tesla". The leap proposed by that remark is absurd both practically and financially, given the immense gap between those options in capability and cost. I have simultaneously owned both a jump gyro and a helicopter, and my direct experience reveals them to be worlds apart in ease of operation, safety, complexity, cost of maintenance, insurance, utility, and many other aspects. An articulated rotor does not a helicopter make, nor must all gyros follow the Bensen DNA..

 

[Mayfield]

I have simultaneously owned both a jump gyro and a helicopter, and my direct experience reveals them to be worlds apart in ease of operation, safety, complexity, cost of maintenance, insurance, utility, and many other aspects. An articulated rotor does not a helicopter make, nor must all gyros follow the Bensen DNA..

I too have owned and flown an A&S 18A and a helicopter. In my case the helicopter was a Brantly B2. The gyroplane was much, much simpler to maintain and operate.

As just one example: The non-load bearing transmission in the 18A is a fine gearbox for pre-rotating the rotor system but would not survive even moments of powered flight. In addition, there is no provision for a tail rotor drive shaft or a tail rotor and tail rotor control system,

Very different machines.

Jon's golf cart/Tesla comparison is accurate.

All that being said, if a man can dream it, a man can build it. There is only one Dick Degraw or Ernie Boyette, but if someone wanted it badly enough a jump capability could be designed for lighter gyros. Thus far we haven't wanted it badly enough.

Jim

 

[loftus]

The much beloved fixed collective teetering two blade rotor system has lots of baggage that people seem to accept without question, because it is the norm they know. The Sport Pilot limitations have reinforced this bias. All this rotor management, balancing on the mains, blade sailing "flap" risk, and uncounted scores of take-off accidents are the price of mechanical simplicity, and it's a big price. Add collective control, even if only two positions (pre-spin and flight) and that trouble all goes away. I could train a novice to do jump takeoffs in an A&S18A in just a few flight hours, with absolutely no need for taxiing endlessly up and down the runway, crow hops, or any of that stuff that would-be gyronauts spend so much of their time on. I would argue that it takes considerably less skill and training to jump an 18A safely than to manage a "normal" takeoff in a light sport gyro. There's certainly no need to nurse a rotor up to speed, develop a "feel" for increasing rotor rpm, worry about crosswind effects on the roll, struggle to stay off the back side of the curve, or any of that fuss when you pre-spin to 150%, push a button on the throttle, and leap directly into the wind with no ground roll. Looked at from the other side of the mainstream, it is truly amazing how much the typical gyro pilot puts up with to live with a design that is well known to be downright dangerous at low g. The tolerance for grief among gyro enthusiasts is astonishing to me.

Why not more mainstream? Fundamentally, building your own fully articulated rotor head is beyond the typical assemble-from-a-kit hobbyist, the light sport rules don't permit it, and the cost would of course be higher. Consequently, all these factors discourage and obscure whatever potential demand there might be out there, so manufacturers see no market and accordingly do no developing (I don't question that reasoning by manufacturers, but remain saddened by the consequences of it).

I often hear arguments of the tenor "why not just get a helicopter", which I attribute to ignorance (no offense intended, Loftus!). My analogy would be two friends who drive electric golf carts. One proposes to upgrade to Li-ion batteries instead of lead-acid in his cart. The other responds, "then you might as well buy a Tesla". The leap proposed by that remark is absurd both practically and financially, given the immense gap between those options in capability and cost. I have simultaneously owned both a jump gyro and a helicopter, and my direct experience reveals them to be worlds apart in ease of operation, safety, complexity, cost of maintenance, insurance, utility, and many other aspects. An articulated rotor does not a helicopter make, nor must all gyros follow the Bensen DNA..

The much beloved fixed collective teetering two blade rotor system has lots of baggage that people seem to accept without question, because it is the norm they know. The Sport Pilot limitations have reinforced this bias. All this rotor management, balancing on the mains, blade sailing "flap" risk, and uncounted scores of take-off accidents are the price of mechanical simplicity, and it's a big price. Add collective control, even if only two positions (pre-spin and flight) and that trouble all goes away. I could train a novice to do jump takeoffs in an A&S18A in just a few flight hours, with absolutely no need for taxiing endlessly up and down the runway, crow hops, or any of that stuff that would-be gyronauts spend so much of their time on. I would argue that it takes considerably less skill and training to jump an 18A safely than to manage a "normal" takeoff in a light sport gyro. There's certainly no need to nurse a rotor up to speed, develop a "feel" for increasing rotor rpm, worry about crosswind effects on the roll, struggle to stay off the back side of the curve, or any of that fuss when you pre-spin to 150%, push a button on the throttle, and leap directly into the wind with no ground roll. Looked at from the other side of the mainstream, it is truly amazing how much the typical gyro pilot puts up with to live with a design that is well known to be downright dangerous at low g. The tolerance for grief among gyro enthusiasts is astonishing to me.

Why not more mainstream? Fundamentally, building your own fully articulated rotor head is beyond the typical assemble-from-a-kit hobbyist, the light sport rules don't permit it, and the cost would of course be higher. Consequently, all these factors discourage and obscure whatever potential demand there might be out there, so manufacturers see no market and accordingly do no developing (I don't question that reasoning by manufacturers, but remain saddened by the consequences of it).

I often hear arguments of the tenor "why not just get a helicopter", which I attribute to ignorance (no offense intended, Loftus!). My analogy would be two friends who drive electric golf carts. One proposes to upgrade to Li-ion batteries instead of lead-acid in his cart. The other responds, "then you might as well buy a Tesla". The leap proposed by that remark is absurd both practically and financially, given the immense gap between those options in capability and cost. I have simultaneously owned both a jump gyro and a helicopter, and my direct experience reveals them to be worlds apart in ease of operation, safety, complexity, cost of maintenance, insurance, utility, and many other aspects. An articulated rotor does not a helicopter make, nor must all gyros follow the Bensen DNA..

Question: What certification is required to fly the A&S 18A? What would it take to recreate a similar design?

 

[Rowdyflyer1903!]

Have you ever played with a toy gyro kite? What dad discovered the closer you get the disk to 90 degrees the fast and more air you could pump through it without it flapping. If you take a gyro kite and play with various angles of the disk to the incoming wind you will find the the greater the angle the more air it can take. A disk at 90 degrees will almost instantly get to flight speed with very little effort.

Another way to experiment with this is to sharpen a ruler on opposite sides making a crude airfoil. Put s screw through the middle into a wood dowel. Then play with it in the wind and ultimately out the window of a vehicle. You can actually make the disk flap (blade sailing as the Europeans say) as you move the disk to 90 it will take more and more air without flapping. Chuck had me do this when I wouldn’t stop asking questions. It taught me so much about a see saw rotor system.

When Dad debuted the Dominator at Bensen Days 1989 most people were put off at how tall it was and mistakenly attributed this to mean it was going to roll over as soon as it was taxied. Dad got up and said ok guys and girls think about this it’s not a go cart. The high CG shouldn’t matter if you land and take off straight like you are supposed to. This was something he couldn’t get customers to let go of so he made everything smaller for a 60” prop. It made the rock back a little more than a Bensen but not as much as the original.

At Bensen Days 1989 we had a big storm come up and no where to hanger the machines so they were left out in the rain. The next morning we did the best we could to dry everything off however water got into the points ignition of his 503. Dad’s first flight he ended up having an engine out at the end of the runway. He landed in weeds and bushes that were about 4-5 high. He was able to do a stop and drop with no damage at all. I ran over asked if he wanted me to drag the trailer over and we could cut the fence and fix it back once loaded.

He said no let me see if I can figure out why this engine quit. He cleaned the points and said I been telling everyone this machine is touch field capable so we are going to prove it now. He and I went trough and cleared a path with out pocket knives as wide as the gear and about 75 long. He backed it up to the furthest the clearing went and warmed the engine up. He wound the blades to around 300rpms and kept the prerotator engaged and he began to roll and was off in a few feet. Popped up flew to the tent and landed. We hoped people would have seen that but most were still trying to clean their machines after the storm.

This is golden information.

 

[WaspAir]

Question: What certification is required to fly the A&S 18A? What would it take to recreate a similar design?

Because it has a controllable prop, an articulated rotor, and an 1800 pound gross weight, you need at least a Recreational gyro rating or above (Sport Pilot gyro privileges aren't enough).

The technology in the 18A is mid 1960s era at best. I would think modern materials and tech could vastly improve it, with composites and electronics instead of wood, steel, and mechanical systems and controls.

The rotor blades, for example, are beautifully made from laminated birch, fibreglass, and stainless with no life limit, but would be very expensive today requiring a high level of skilled labor. Carbon fiber composites could be substituted to good effect.

 

[BEN S]

Links to the videos?

https://www.youtube.com/@michelcros9544

 

[loftus]

https://www.youtube.com/@michelcros9544

Now I recall seeing this once before; really cool. Are there any threads anywhere on the details of the mechanism and the technique?

 

[Jungleman]

Hey @Jungleman
Its been a while since this thread has seen any activity, how have you been? any new updates to the gyro?
Did you end up putting a 915 on it?
What are your thoughts of doing the nose wheel mod to a MTO 2017 and getting bigger tires in the back?

RogerB
Sorry for the delayed reply.
I am fine thank you. Been flat out though bringing in Magni’s and doing the back country modifications,training the new owners & generally spreading the back country gyro faith. We now have 8 of the Magni Xtremes operating here in New Zealand & another arriving May. All bar 1 having the 915. I did not convert my 914 as made more sense to buy new with a 915 fitted. See pic.
All of the new owners are very happy with their machines and most are experienced pilots in fixed wing, heli or both so
have something to go by.
We are loving the 915. I had reservations early on with the increased weight , cost and general complexity. However matched with the DUC Flash 2 prop the performance is impressive. I have put 130 hours on mine in the past 3 weeks in our Fiordland mountains & its a real joy to fly.
The redundant systems are reassuring especially when operating over beautiful but hostile terrain. For that I will put up with possible sensor etc issues down the track. I am hoping it will turn out to be the most reliable aircraft engine I have flown. I have had more than my share of aircraft engine & drive train failures over the years & would be nice not to have any more.
The extra electrical power available is great for heated suits etc & saves carrying Lipo batteries which I was not crazy about.
Your question regarding future mods. Nothing major at the moment. Am in the process of making 80 litre ali aux fuel tanks. The existing 60 litre drum works but does look a bit agricultural & the extra 20 lits will increase endurance from 5.5 to 6.5 hrs & better for flying fuel out to forward sites. Will have a clip on locker on top for the M16’s. That will also help in raising the vertical C of G a little.
Remembering regards to modifications weight goes onto an aircraft similar to us, one cookie at a time. I have already
added 20 kg with the back country kit etc so am very judicial when looking at future mods.
Am still considering an un lockable nose wheel & toes brakes. The pro’s & cons of linked as opposed to unlinked have been discussed in a few threads. I routinely fly both & would be good to have the pro’s of both.
Regarding fitting large tyres etc to your MTO. I have seen pics of what looks like 22” tyres all round fitted. This would be an improvement I am sure but in my opinion a suspension nose wheel assembly is the real key in rough ground. Set fairly soft to keep the nose attitude as stable as possible over the rough ground. My assembly weighs 10kg so thats a wack of weight way out front & low down. Fortunately the Magni keel is very strong in that area and I have not experienced any cracking issues.
For the rear tyres I am using the Alaskan Airstreaks 26” which are double the weight of the 22” & 5 times the cost.
So in my mind three questions at the top of your list would be:
1/ Will your gyro handle them aerodynamically & structurally.( C of G, low down drag etc)
2/ do you really need them
3/ Existing pilot weight is a consideration also.

For me & where I operate it has been a real game changer & I am more then prepared to give up deserts for the rest of my days & that includes Pavlova & ice cream at Xmas time !

 

[loftus]

Jungleman, Glad you got back on here to show us your stuff. That looks like a real beast. I'm shopping for heated suits - any brand or type that you prefer?

 

[Burrengyro]

Happy New Year Jungleman!
The suspension nose wheel assembly you have on your M16 915i: is that made by Magni or is it an independent design? Where can it be bought? What is the empty weight of this Magni M16 with all the mods? John H.

 

[Jungleman]

Jungleman, Glad you got back on here to show us your stuff. That looks like a real beast. I'm shopping for heated suits - any brand or type that you prefer?

Hi Loftus.
I use the warm&safe.com gear. They are really an under layer so need something over the top to help retain and spread the heat. The 90 Watt jacket is quite new and I find it great. Alot more heat in the forearms.
I usually order the following:
90 watt jacket liner / Pants / Gloves / Socks/. 2 dual controllers & two long splitter cables & 2 short ones.
This allows you to run the jacket and gloves together ( gloves plug into sleeves) & pants and socks together.
That can all be done with one dual controller.
When it gets colder & I want more heat in feet & hands I then power them with the long splitter cables and off the second dual controller. If that makes sense.
Pete

 

[Jungleman]

Happy New Year Jungleman!
The suspension nose wheel assembly you have on your M16 915i: is that made by Magni or is it an independent design? Where can it be bought? What is the empty weight of this Magni M16 with all the mods? John H.

Happy new year to you too John.
The nose wheel assembly is my design & I have them made here. Magni has had one for a year now on a training gyro & they like it and are in the process of manufacturing them. Mine is hand machined and welded so quite labour intensive they are going to CNC out of Ali so should work out more cost effective & hopefully 1kg lighter.
They are very busy at the moment so not sure when they will be in production but I can let you know.
Did you build the airstrip on your home block ?
Pete

 

[Burrengyro]

Happy new year to you too John.
The nose wheel assembly is my design & I have them made here. Magni has had one for a year now on a training gyro & they like it and are in the process of manufacturing them. Mine is hand machined and welded so quite labour intensive they are going to CNC out of Ali so should work out more cost effective & hopefully 1kg lighter.
They are very busy at the moment so not sure when they will be in production but I can let you know.
Did you build the airstrip on your home block ?
Pete

Hi Pete,
Many thanks for the info. I hit a few snags with the airfield. There were a lot of limitations associated with both runway options available to me on the land, the main one being the length (250m) which was marginal in cross-wind conditions and planning problems. More land to lengthen the runway was not available. Spanish Point Airfield has a 500m runway so staying there was the best option. Unfortunately, I wrecked my ELA07S in a takeoff accident due to an unexpected crosswind gust last March. I have a Magni M22 now and have to be more cautious with my weather-related flying decisions or my boss will clip my wings. Your larger wheel setup on your gyros is looking like an interesting option for operating in our weather conditions in the West of Ireland. Is the new Magni nose wheel installed on the other Magni M16 Extreme gyros you imported lately?

 

[Jungleman]

Hi Pete,
Many thanks for the info. I hit a few snags with the airfield. There were a lot of limitations associated with both runway options available to me on the land, the main one being the length (250m) which was marginal in cross-wind conditions and planning problems. More land to lengthen the runway was not available. Spanish Point Airfield has a 500m runway so staying there was the best option. Unfortunately, I wrecked my ELA07S in a takeoff accident due to an unexpected crosswind gust last March. I have a Magni M22 now and have to be more cautious with my weather-related flying decisions or my boss will clip my wings. Your larger wheel setup on your gyros is looking like an interesting option for operating in our weather conditions in the West of Ireland. Is the new Magni nose wheel installed on the other Magni M16 Extreme gyros you imported lately?

John.
Very sorry to hear about your ELA, but glad you got out of it ok.
Understood about your home strip, probably a good decision.
The larger tyres would help alot in your winter conditions. The 26” would provide almost double the floatation over
soft ground than the 22”though. If weight became a problem in the summer you could go back to 22” for then.
I presume your M22 is a 914 & has Berringer brakes. Remembering also even with the 22” you really need to add a step of some sorts.
Of the Magni’s I have brought in recently 3 are M16 & 5 M22. When here all are fitted with 26” rears & the 17.5” suspension nose wheel assembly.
See pic of 3 M22’s about to be released into the wild.

 

[RogerB]

Hi Pete,
Many thanks for the info. I hit a few snags with the airfield. There were a lot of limitations associated with both runway options available to me on the land, the main one being the length (250m) which was marginal in cross-wind conditions and planning problems. More land to lengthen the runway was not available. Spanish Point Airfield has a 500m runway so staying there was the best option. Unfortunately, I wrecked my ELA07S in a takeoff accident due to an unexpected crosswind gust last March. I have a Magni M22 now and have to be more cautious with my weather-related flying decisions or my boss will clip my wings. Your larger wheel setup on your gyros is looking like an interesting option for operating in our weather conditions in the West of Ireland. Is the new Magni nose wheel installed on the other Magni M16 Extreme gyros you imported lately?

Sorry to hear that about your accident. I am still learning so wanted to ask if you can elaborate on what happened on your accident and what could have been done to fix it (sudden crosswind gust) when it was happening if anything?

 

[RogerB]

John.
Very sorry to hear about your ELA, but glad you got out of it ok.
Understood about your home strip, probably a good decision.
The larger tyres would help alot in your winter conditions. The 26” would provide almost double the floatation over
soft ground than the 22”though. If weight became a problem in the summer you could go back to 22” for then.
I presume your M22 is a 914 & has Berringer brakes. Remembering also even with the 22” you really need to add a step of some sorts.
Of the Magni’s I have brought in recently 3 are M16 & 5 M22. When here all are fitted with 26” rears & the 17.5” suspension nose wheel assembly.
See pic of 3 M22’s about to be released into the wild.View attachment 1156996

Beautiful!
You are custom building the nose wheel system for each of them? Did you end up doing independent rear braking or what route did you go for steering?
How much of a difference is that DUC prop making?

 

[Jungleman]

Beautiful!
You are custom building the nose wheel system for each of them? Did you end up doing independent rear braking or what route did you go for steering?
How much of a difference is that DUC prop making?

Yes, build the nose wheel assy here but Magni should have one out soon.
I still have the same original nose wheel linked setup. Works fine & with the larger 17.5” wheel that has increased the trail distance between the axel and vertical shaft so it trails straight easily on touch down during X wind landings.
I am impressed with the 4 bladed DUC prop when fitted to the 915. Even with my tyre set up at full fuel & myself 85kg I can still get 1500 fpm climb. I am very happy with that. I did consider constant speed props etc but more weight, money & complexity.

 

[Burrengyro]

Sorry to hear that about your accident. I am still learning so wanted to ask if you can elaborate on what happened on your accident and what could have been done to fix it (sudden crosswind gust) when it was happening if anything?

Hi RogerB, Many thanks for the post. Have a look at my thread posting on ELA07S Accident in Ireland on Jan 4th 2023.
Hopefully, it will answer some questions on what happened and my part in it. If you have any questions, do a post to that thread and I will do my best to answer. John H.