Back Country Gyro Ops. Equipment, mods, techniques.

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
John.
Your welcome for the article etc. Happy to give you some extra reading material during your lock down.
See the attached pic, have I got it right.
PeteE1618710-F04A-4181-B95F-14BD30B44054.jpeg
 

Burrengyro

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
80
Location
Ireland
Aircraft
ELA07S and Montgomerie Bensen (project)
Total Flight Time
300
John.
Your welcome for the article etc. Happy to give you some extra reading material during your lock down.
See the attached pic, have I got it right.
PeteView attachment 1151977
Pete, exactly right. The wooded area between the yellow runway and the green runway slopes steeply towards the lower farm road. There are trees which need to be removed to make the green runway safe. When a cross wind from the west blows, turbulence happens and can cause a gyro to drop more quickly requiring a bit more speed to keep control. The sea area of this estuary is a special area of conservation for wildlife, etc. The yellow runway might be sufficiently removed from this special area for it not to be a problem. I don't own the flat field adjacent to the green runway, unfortunately. It can be very soft in winter. Several years ago, the banks protecting this land from the estuary broke in a storm and the whole area was under about 5 ft of water. The high and dry yellow runway, albeit with a slope does not have such problems. Ideally, my house and farm shed would be adjacent to the entrance gate to the land, affording a panoramic view. Both runways are within the Shannon Airport control zone, so a transponder is mandatory, which would not be a problem. If a STOL runway for a gyro is feasible and safe, then I proceed to apply for planning permission. If not, need to find a more suitable field. Any info on how you built your runway and of course a few videos would be super.
John
 

wolfy

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
784
Location
western australia
Apart from the risk of flooding, I like the look of the flat runway next to the drain.
Is it possible to see any more pictures of the hill runway?

wolfy
 

Burrengyro

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
80
Location
Ireland
Aircraft
ELA07S and Montgomerie Bensen (project)
Total Flight Time
300
Apart from the risk of flooding, I like the look of the flat runway next to the drain.
Is it possible to see any more pictures of the hill runway?

wolfy
Hi Pete and Wolfy,
The slope in the yellow runway starts at the cross road point. Grading from this point would give a gentler slope as far as the end of your orange line. The yellow runway could be a hard gravel runway just by removing the top layer of dirt. I have neighbours at both ends of the yellow runway on the starboard side. The green runway is further away from both neighbours. The green runway is attractive but I need to remove some trees. I may be able to raise the runway level to avoid the 10 year flood. A runway excursion into the drain would be bad. I will try and get some up to date photos of both from different angles. It would be good to have a choice if our grass runway out West is boggy.

Wolfy and Pete, please keep the comments, videos and photos coming. They add greatly to understanding of flying gyros. I am also hoping that my postings are of some use to other gyro pilots.
John.
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
John
You have painted a pretty good picture.
As I understand your house and shed are planned for the western corner of the top flat.
At the moment the top flat extends to the hedge but you would start your cut at the road intersection.
I am thinking Ireland will be similar to NZ. If we simply put in an airstrip or even operate out of a field all is ok until someone complains and then the local authorities (Council) come visiting. Their argument is we are carrying out a non
complying activity & thus need consent. Part of that process requires written consent from the affected neighbours.
One of which was probably the one who complained.
My strip in the north is miles from anyone. The one in the south required consent from 5 neighbours and various noise studies etc & some CAA approval also. The final council consent is for 20 years and up to 12 take offs per day
& able to be cancelled at Councils discretion. So I try and fly as neighbourly as possible. Noise for as short a time as possible. No circuits. For those I head way south to a remote beach or strip. Only disadvantage of that is if I have an incident then it is up to me if able to get help as no one to hear the bang.
Construction of the one in the north was easy. Bulldozer to deal to humps and hollows then grader then grass & roll,
about 4 k usd.
The south was very wet so took off the gorse with a digger & filled some reasonable sized guts and removed a few trees and then trucked in a large amount of slip gravel. Took a month & cost 25 k usd. So I am hoping council does not ever withdraw my consent.
From where I sit your choice is interesting.
The yellow one you would have your gyro in the shed by the house. The green a taxi down the hill or shed at the lower level. (More chance when you are working on your gyro of having scones delivered by your better half if near the house.)
The yellow option looks like would have cleaner wind unless from the easterly quarter. Also possibly cheaper to construct & better drainage. The main issue I see is the proximity to the neighbours. It looks like one is about 60 meters from the strip. With mine in NZ the consent from a neighbour does not necessarily carry over to a new owner. Something to think about.
With the fly out over the flat lower field I think would be good to work off.
The green option your ops more secluded and less noise to those two neighbours. Possible consent issues with regards to the wildlife / estuary. Flooding, & the more you build it up then maybe restricting existing drainage
on the up hill side. More of a climb out with say a near max load than the yellow.
I am sure all of these points you have considered except maybe the one regarding the scones.
Either way I am looking forward to see the outcome.
Pete
6AE01F8B-ED0F-4009-AE23-BEF597BDDA9B.jpeg27303032-E318-4D53-98E2-0D32717A9736.jpeg90AECEF5-0F40-45AB-BC54-B4A90D317840.jpegA79AEF03-5799-4053-9857-53B671719B44.jpeg A year later.
 
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Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
Writing in the most general terms Pete; at 50kts I generally see around 700 feet per minute two up at sea level. Solo I generally see around 1,100 feet per minute at 50kts.
Vance.
Thanks for that. If I am over your way some day would like to come an do an hours dual in the Predator.
Cheers
Pete
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,189
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Drove up to Santa Maria then back the next day from LA to do that with Vance, it was worth every minute Pete. I can highly recommend it.

Vance is a gentleman, great host and a fine Instructor.

I have always considered the Predator as the ‘Dreadnought' of modern gyros, she was a sweet flying machine.
 
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wolfy

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
784
Location
western australia
Wolfy.
Copy that. My Carlisles on the SC were around that. I suppose we can get away with running our tubed tyres softer
than fixed wing as we are not really using our brakes the same and not as much chance of spinning the tyre on the rim.
So yeah even though my rears are considerably larger your nose wheel is the same as mine. As we mentioned previously the issues start at the nose. And I have very solid proof that as will be seen by my future post on bent metal. Probably post heading of “ Flying the Nose Wheel or Not”
You got Badgers ( correction Wombats) over there ? Seen some burrows over here I reckon even would give a 35” grief.

I have two wishes at the moment , 1 more rate of climb for mountain down drafts. The 915 arriving soon will probably address that.
The second, a nose wheel that is almost impossible to bury. Have some ideas am working on there & no its not 4 wheels.
As far as take off roll goes I do not think the 915 will help much there and I am a bit chicken to use all that power on marginal ground anyway. Will be good once airborne for obstacle clearance though.
Hey some time in your build when your happy could you at say 60 knots poke in 15 degrees of right pedal and note how much right stick is needed to correct for left roll if any.
Cheers
Pete
Gday Pete, sorry Its been awhile getting back to you regarding yaw roll coupling.
I was flying a little today and remembered your question.
While it was only at about 50 knots I tried both left and right and required surprising little cyclic to correct for yaw roll coupling. Very happy.
I'll try to remember to try at 60 knots next time.

wolfy
 

Burrengyro

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
80
Location
Ireland
Aircraft
ELA07S and Montgomerie Bensen (project)
Total Flight Time
300
John
You have painted a pretty good picture.
As I understand your house and shed are planned for the western corner of the top flat.
At the moment the top flat extends to the hedge but you would start your cut at the road intersection.
I am thinking Ireland will be similar to NZ. If we simply put in an airstrip or even operate out of a field all is ok until someone complains and then the local authorities (Council) come visiting. Their argument is we are carrying out a non
complying activity & thus need consent. Part of that process requires written consent from the affected neighbours.
One of which was probably the one who complained.
My strip in the north is miles from anyone. The one in the south required consent from 5 neighbours and various noise studies etc & some CAA approval also. The final council consent is for 20 years and up to 12 take offs per day
& able to be cancelled at Councils discretion. So I try and fly as neighbourly as possible. Noise for as short a time as possible. No circuits. For those I head way south to a remote beach or strip. Only disadvantage of that is if I have an incident then it is up to me if able to get help as no one to hear the bang.
Construction of the one in the north was easy. Bulldozer to deal to humps and hollows then grader then grass & roll,
about 4 k usd.
The south was very wet so took off the gorse with a digger & filled some reasonable sized guts and removed a few trees and then trucked in a large amount of slip gravel. Took a month & cost 25 k usd. So I am hoping council does not ever withdraw my consent.
From where I sit your choice is interesting.
The yellow one you would have your gyro in the shed by the house. The green a taxi down the hill or shed at the lower level. (More chance when you are working on your gyro of having scones delivered by your better half if near the house.)
The yellow option looks like would have cleaner wind unless from the easterly quarter. Also possibly cheaper to construct & better drainage. The main issue I see is the proximity to the neighbours. It looks like one is about 60 meters from the strip. With mine in NZ the consent from a neighbour does not necessarily carry over to a new owner. Something to think about.
With the fly out over the flat lower field I think would be good to work off.
The green option your ops more secluded and less noise to those two neighbours. Possible consent issues with regards to the wildlife / estuary. Flooding, & the more you build it up then maybe restricting existing drainage
on the up hill side. More of a climb out with say a near max load than the yellow.
I am sure all of these points you have considered except maybe the one regarding the scones.
Either way I am looking forward to see the outcome.
Pete
View attachment 1151987View attachment 1151989View attachment 1151988View attachment 1151986 A year later.
Hi Pete,
Ireland and NZ are 99% the same with the same issues of neighbours, planning and weather. I originally bought this land about 20 years ago with the intention to build a new house and big man shed and have a boat at the water's edge. My wife did not like the boat idea so I bought a gyro! Love the photos of the work and finished strip. Is this the runway with near neighbours? I would be very happy with 12 takeoffs per day!

Originally, planning was not required for a airstrip in Ireland. Then a row happened between neighbours and a strip owner which resulted in a high court case. The outcome was that planning consent was deemed to be required for any change of use of land outside of normal farming activities. I plan to talk to the planning authorities to see how to proceed. Planning is usually permanent in Ireland, if granted.

Thank you for making a great assessment of the pros and cons of my two options. The photos of the works and finished runway are great encouragement for me. One great and interesting unknown is our Irish Aviation Authority is looking at looking at changing the shape of the lower controlled airspace for Shannon International Airport from circular controlled space to a more rectangular controlled space in line with runway orientation. This might expand the area of uncontrolled general aviation space available in my area in the next few years.

Please keep posting any thoughts and concerns you might have on this topic.
John.
 

wolfy

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
784
Location
western australia
Hi Pete and Wolfy,
The slope in the yellow runway starts at the cross road point. Grading from this point would give a gentler slope as far as the end of your orange line. The yellow runway could be a hard gravel runway just by removing the top layer of dirt. I have neighbours at both ends of the yellow runway on the starboard side. The green runway is further away from both neighbours. The green runway is attractive but I need to remove some trees. I may be able to raise the runway level to avoid the 10 year flood. A runway excursion into the drain would be bad. I will try and get some up to date photos of both from different angles. It would be good to have a choice if our grass runway out West is boggy.

Wolfy and Pete, please keep the comments, videos and photos coming. They add greatly to understanding of flying gyros. I am also hoping that my postings are of some use to other gyro pilots.
John.
My comments were mainly based on the pictures you have currently shown of the sloping runway looks quite steep from the top picture looking down hill, it would be interesting to see it from some other angles to get a better feel for the slope. Sometimes just a number in degrees won't give me a "feel" for the angle.
As a grader driver I know that sloping ground in general will be more problematic for errosion after the ground has been disturbed, it could take years before the disturbed ground has settled back down enough to not erode like before.
I would imagine the flat ground requiring less work to form up.
I would be interesting to get the opinions of some local grader drivers who could see it in person.
In an ideal world you would have both stips formed up.
I may be a little bias as my hill flying experience is limited.

wolfy
 

Burrengyro

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
80
Location
Ireland
Aircraft
ELA07S and Montgomerie Bensen (project)
Total Flight Time
300
My comments were mainly based on the pictures you have currently shown of the sloping runway looks quite steep from the top picture looking down hill, it would be interesting to see it from some other angles to get a better feel for the slope. Sometimes just a number in degrees won't give me a "feel" for the angle.
As a grader driver I know that sloping ground in general will be more problematic for errosion after the ground has been disturbed, it could take years before the disturbed ground has settled back down enough to not erode like before.
I would imagine the flat ground requiring less work to form up.
I would be interesting to get the opinions of some local grader drivers who could see it in person.
In an ideal world you would have both stips formed up.
I may be a little bias as my hill flying experience is limited.

wolfy
Hi Wolfy,
Very good point about rainwater erosion on a slope. Thanks for highlighting it! A related issue is water seeping from higher ground to the lower areas. I succeeded in draining several previously saturated acres by digging deep cross slope drains, installing corrugated perforated drainage pipes and back filling with rock to divert the seepage from the higher acres away to planned drains. I have already build about 750m of farm roads on the land. I made sure to put down a deep bed of stone with plenty of rolling to get a good solid surface, with enough porosity at the sides to drain surface water away from the centre line of the road. So far it has worked well even after ten years. If I had an option, I would also go for doing both runways, grass on the flat (green) runway, and compacted gravel on the yellow sloping runway. The covid travel restrictions are limiting my chances of getting new photos for now, but will try to get some posted.

Really enjoyed your videos of the new gyro. The flying is superb! Please keep posting.

I hope the forum members who have local access to big long hard surface runways are not too bored with this runway issue. For me, gyro flying needs 3 or 4 critical inputs: A good gyro, a well trained pilot, safe usable runways and good weather. If any one is missing, there may be trouble ahead!
John
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
While it was only at about 50 knots I tried both left and right and required surprising little cyclic to correct for yaw roll coupling. Very happy.
I'll try to remember to try at 60 knots next time.

wolfy
Wolfy.
Thanks for doing that, very interesting.
I get very little if any in the M16 even with the 26” tyres & with further yaw.
The SC I get quite a bit. So when out of isolation & back with my gyros am planning on fitting the 17” Carlisles again to do some other comparisons & will check that also to see if it is the extra drag of the bushies causing it.
I know we are supposed to fly in trim but in stronger turbulence not always that easy.
I see on your build you have nose wheel brake, so no rears is that correct.
If I do not see enough improvement on the SC with the bigger brakes then was thinking of adding one also.
Pete
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
Hi Pete,
Ireland and NZ are 99% the same with the same issues of neighbours, planning and weather. I originally bought this land about 20 years ago with the intention to build a new house and big man shed and have a boat at the water's edge. My wife did not like the boat idea so I bought a gyro! Love the photos of the work and finished strip. Is this the runway with near neighbours? I would be very happy with 12 takeoffs per day!

Originally, planning was not required for a airstrip in Ireland. Then a row happened between neighbours and a strip owner which resulted in a high court case. The outcome was that planning consent was deemed to be required for any change of use of land outside of normal farming activities. I plan to talk to the planning authorities to see how to proceed. Planning is usually permanent in Ireland, if granted.

Thank you for making a great assessment of the pros and cons of my two options. The photos of the works and finished runway are great encouragement for me. One great and interesting unknown is our Irish Aviation Authority is looking at looking at changing the shape of the lower controlled airspace for Shannon International Airport from circular controlled space to a more rectangular controlled space in line with runway orientation. This might expand the area of uncontrolled general aviation space available in my area in the next few years.

Please keep posting any thoughts and concerns you might have on this topic.
John.
John.
I copy all that. Sounds like a similar consent process.
In 3 weeks or so I will dig out the noise study I had done and maybe post the decibel map. The lines are similar to contour lines. It was for the MD500 with a quieter 4 blade tail rotor so probably similar.
Yes the 5 neighbours are around the gravel strip in the pics. One has yet to build. One is only there a week a year.
Two make as much if not more noise than I with steel fabrication and land / water based toys & chainsaws. The other is the river & beyond being state land.
Long days in the summer so can get going at 5:00 and in at 9:30 pm. They reckon they a getting use to it though and often do not wake up.
Pete.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,708
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Vance.
Thanks for that. If I am over your way some day would like to come an do an hours dual in the Predator.
Cheers
Pete
I love to learn from experienced pilots Pete. The Transportation Security Administration limits who I can give lessons to.

The TSA requires that you have an FAA pilot certificate or proof of USA citizenship before I can give any flight instruction.

There is a process for non US citizens but it is long and and costs around $300.

The TSA assumes that because I am a flight instructor that every flight with someone is an instructional flight.

Leigh has an FAA certificate so we had fun flying without putting my certificate at risk.
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
I love to learn from experienced pilots Pete. The Transportation Security Administration limits who I can give lessons to.

The TSA requires that you have an FAA pilot certificate or proof of USA citizenship before I can give any flight instruction.

There is a process for non US citizens but it is long and and costs around $300.

The TSA assumes that because I am a flight instructor that every flight with someone is an instructional flight.

Leigh has an FAA certificate so we had fun flying without putting my certificate at risk.
Vance.
I do have an FAA commercial helicopter & CFI & get to fly in the US from time to time.
In 87 I flew past Santa Maria in an R22 enroute from Portland to Torrance.
Will see what happens down the track, looking forward to it.
Pete
 

wolfy

Gold Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
784
Location
western australia
Wolfy.
Thanks for doing that, very interesting.
I get very little if any in the M16 even with the 26” tyres & with further yaw.
The SC I get quite a bit. So when out of isolation & back with my gyros am planning on fitting the 17” Carlisles again to do some other comparisons & will check that also to see if it is the extra drag of the bushies causing it.
I know we are supposed to fly in trim but in stronger turbulence not always that easy.
I see on your build you have nose wheel brake, so no rears is that correct.
If I do not see enough improvement on the SC with the bigger brakes then was thinking of adding one also.
Pete
That's correct Pete nose wheel brakes only, with the prop thrust up so high most of the weight is transferred from the mains to the nose (without the rotor lifting the nose).
Without the rotor turning I can hold a souped up (122hp) 914 to 4000rpm.
When pre rotating with nose wheel brakes a flatter disk is required to keep the weight on the nose.

wolfy
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
That's correct Pete nose wheel brakes only, with the prop thrust up so high most of the weight is transferred from the mains to the nose (without the rotor lifting the nose).
Without the rotor turning I can hold a souped up (122hp) 914 to 4000rpm.
When pre rotating with nose wheel brakes a flatter disk is required to keep the weight on the nose.

wolfy
Wolfy thanks for that. Thats an impressive rpm for one braked wheel.
Goes back to what we were talking about the couple at higher rpm creating down force on the nose wheel and associated implication in soft sand.
I reckon if I fit an independently actuated one then with all 3 wheels braked will then stick like glue to any surface for those higher pre rotations.
Would also make quite a simple park brake for the Sportcopter.
Pete
 

Jungleman

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
69
Location
Jackson Bay. New Zealand
Aircraft
S64 Crane, MD 500 , Magni M16 & SC M912
Better watch out for those back country landings. Here's one of your Kiwis in Otago
Loftus.
Classic thanks.
I had an almost identical occurrence on a beach not far from there. On take off though. Went over slightly more to the 2 o’clock direction. Probably had similar following rapid mouth movement though. That bird would have had a reasonable amount of total time also. Just goes to show every day is a school day.
Pete
 
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SportCopter

Active Member
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
172
Location
Scappoose
Aircraft
Vortex M912, SportCopter II, Vortex 582, M2
M912 with Australian sunset.png

The above was sent to us by an Australian customer, who kindly allowed its use.

Pete (Jungleman), your real-world experience posted here is very interesting, and we deeply appreciate your forum enthusiasm for your Sport Copter Vortex M912. You are really showcasing its mission: daily, routine back-country use! There are many "street-bike" gyros out there, but we offer a real "enduro" gyro with mast/rotorhead "In-Air Suspension" and actual shock absorbers. It pleases us to see such great photos and stories of your M912 adventures, enjoying your gyro as it was intended.

We're currently flying off the 40 hours of Phase I for our new M2, and adding its last refinements. It has the suspension and frame "heart" of the M912, but in an enclosed 2-place. Now, you can enjoy M912 fun and utility, yet bring along a friend in heated cabin comfort. (Or, fly it without the doors, which are removable in a minute.) We've so far easily seen 105 mph, and it still wanted more!

The M2's rotorhead is our best yet: simple, streamlined, yet strong enough for a much larger gyro. We've also achieved unheard-of prerotation RRPMs (way over 300!) with aft stick for a much shorter take-off roll. (This nearly immediately gets weight off the tires, an important factor in rough fields.) The M2 will be able to get in—and out of—challenging off-road areas with confidence.

From pasture to paddock—backyard to beach! With the Sport Copter M2, who needs runways?

M2 facing boards.jpg

20201203 M2-AM on boards-3.png

Sport Copter M2 ground handling

We're now also having a new exciting website designed, incorporating lots of fresh flying videos, photos, plus technical info and comparisons. (We'll announce on the Forum when our new site goes live soon.) Meanwhile, thanks for everyone's interest, and contact us anytime for more info!

http://www.sportcopter.com
[email protected]
503-543-7000

SC logo1.jpg
 
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