Aviomania's Agrinio Antics

[JEFF TIPTON]

A brand new 912 as seen would cost:

912 with a ‘C’ Gearbox = $39,698.00

912 with an ‘E’ Gearbox = $40,188.00

Confused! I thought the 912 came with a gearbox?

 

[All_In]

Hi John.
I think the Genesis is a super gyroplane and would love to see a few flown over here. I'm just wondering what gyros you compared to it to get the 8k to 10K figure?

The Monarch butterfly comes in around $19K with a 582 the ultralight Butterfly is around $15K with a 503.
The Sportcopter works out around $21K with a 503
I'm not sure what a Ultrawhite Dominator is, I think its around 10,500-11K for a machine less engine prop and instruments.

Paddy

Good morning!!!

I did not select the Genesis for it's lower price. I usually buy the most expensive as they usually have more features or benefits.

I also discovered not all kits are equal in providing everything you need to finish them.

What I remember from Sept. 2010 is I selected two other rides prior to realizing that Nicolas had a 51% USA kit.
I specked out the same features for all aircraft, including a prerotator, pod, instruments, accessories, wire, and attachment parts so I had a price for 3 three other manufacture's rides prior to even knowing the Genesis's price.

When I got the price from Nicolas it was indeed lower than 2 of the 3 rides I selected and almost 10K less than what I had just selected and specked out for my last choice at Mentone.

Also, you should know, I did not talk to the last manufacture salesmen so perhaps their is a cheaper model or kit.

As I calculated my cost to figure out how much I need to earn to buy one It will be almost 10K cheaper by selecting the Genesis.

This was just a bonus as I was only looking for the lightest CLT machine, with the most maneuverability and not thinking of the cost at all, just a way to earn the funds needed to buy one.

 

[helipaddy]

Thanks for the reply John
I'm looking froward to seeing Stan build his machine and looking forward to seeing the ultralight version.

There is a little confusion in the pricing structure ( most other gyro kit manufacturers websites are equally as confusing!) but it can be sorted out easily

All the best in your new gyro venture

Paddy

 

[All_In]

Excellent questions buddy!

Thanks for posting some pricing info, but to be honest, it still leaves me a bit confused.

What I'd like to see is a base price for everything needed to fly. Then a exact price breakdown for all upgrades and what they consist of.

That is what I tried to provide. The base price for everything you need to build except a battery and paint is $19,448.00 with a straight axle and no suspension. Then I listed the suspension add on prices and have you a new total with our best suspension. This price includes everything you need to build it to look just like the video! The only thing Nicolas doesn't supply is the battery.
From what I can see we are different; the only things not included in out kits are tools, primer, paint, battery, electrical wires and switches. Our standards are to furnish everything you need to build it like the pictures you see.
Check out this web-site for more details and options: http://pra31.org/Vendors/AviomaniaInfo.aspx Note: Make sure and change the exchange rate to $1.36 Fridays last rate at my bank at least!

...

Questions I have are......... what is this upgrade with the nose gear all about?

The video shows our off-road suspension and you ask me to quote the ride in the video so I added those options.

Nicolas has 3 landing gears you can choose from depending on where you land and take-off from, paved or dirt!

...

With the 582 engine upgrade, are you saying the upgrade does or does not include the radiator and plumbing and additional instrumentation? If the price does not include that stuff, seems to me it would be better to list the price with these items than without.

The upgrade price for a 582 on the web-page says :G1sa Genesis Rotax 582 upgrade + $1,768.00 582 engine upgrade, bigger prop & water temp. gauge.
Changed = I stand corrected, Just read Nicolas post. That price does not include the radiator.

...
Main gear upgrade, does this mean the base model gyro comes with non steamlined tubing and no suspension? Guess what I am asking is what does the base model come with, round or square tubing and no suspension, or does it still have suspension but non aerodynamic tubing?

That is correct it is more like a Benson landing gear for those who want it, we do not force suspension on anyone.

...
Will the kit include EVERYTHING a builder needs? In other words, if I order a kit and take delivery of it.... once I open my box and start to inventory the stuff, what will I need to still buy to have a finished ship? Wiring for instruments??? Any Hardware??? Throttle cables or Quadrants??? Padding for the seat??? Anything???

Yes we are different from what I've seen. It is everything you need except a battery and paint.

...
Will the tubing and fiberglass parts come painted, powder coated, polished ????

You may have it just undercoated for $400.00, or painted, or put together. We will even polish the controls and rotor-head if you desire it.
All the prices are on both web-sites.

...

Are the prices listed the price of the kit shippped to my front door, or is this the price before shipping from Cyprus ? If so, how much does shipping add to the price?

And not that many people will drive to Oregon to pick up a Sportcopter kit to save on shipping, it is possible. So if there is still shipping costs to factor in, will customers have a option of picking up their kit locally from say John or Stan to be able to avoid shipping fees?

Speaking of shipping, I have always believed that if you really look at the bulk of the gyros in various parts of the country, there tends to be a trend of alot of the " Local " machines will be of the make of the closest kit maker, or what the " local " CFI tends to endorse. Example, in Florida and the southeast, there is tons of Dominators. In the Northwest there are tons of Sportcopters. In Texas there are alot of aircommands and Butterflys....

The last shipping costs quotes I received was 1,000 euros $1,360.00 if shipped all together, 1,450 euros $1,972.00 if it is shipped in up to 6 shipments. There are no other costs!

...

Do these prices include any import taxes and duties? Do they include sales commissions? Crating fees?

There is no other cost or fees everything is included in the price except a battery and shipping.

...

Will the engines be shipped over from Europe with the kit, or will the engine be sent from a US distributor like Lockwood?

We have to craw before we walk. For now everything comes from Cypress except I beleive Ernie's DW blades that can be drop shipped.
We are discussing buying parts in the US and manufacturing the kits here for US customers. This will reduce the redundant shipping cost of hardware and the direct cost of shipping to the US customers.

This will not be up to me, but if you guys will buy them from me it will be hard not to implement this as it will further reduce our customers cost.

But we have to craw first, there is a warning Nicolas can only build 4 more rides before we hit our manufacturing capacity. After than the next folks are going to have to wait until these are finished.

So if you want one now you better get your deposit in, or be prepared to wait.

 

[All_In]

Confused! I thought the 912 came with a gearbox?

Jeff you are probably not the one confused. That would be me! I'm still learning.
I haven't checked out the 912 so I do not really know how the 912 is configured for that money I would prefer a used Lyc. with 1000 hour left before TBO for under 7K.

It probably come with a gear box so that would reduce the price by $612.00 for the "C" gearbox upgrade and reduce the 912's cost by $1,292.00 for the 'E' gearbox (including solenoid, switches etc).

So then A brand new 912 as seen would cost:

912 = $39,086.00

Thank you Jeff for teaching me that!!
I'll get better the more I learn form pricing different configuration.

 

[All_In]

Thanks for the reply John
I'm looking froward to seeing Stan build his machine and looking forward to seeing the ultralight version.

There is a little confusion in the pricing structure ( most other gyro kit manufacturers websites are equally as confusing!) but it can be sorted out easily

All the best in your new gyro venture

Paddy

Thank you Paddy. I find the all the sites equally confusing so...

I'm writing a new US site for us that will allow you to select option from a drop down list and build your ride and then email you a contract.

 

[willisbr]

I can answer the last question Ron had about the hardware. The site says

All materials and hardware used in the construction of*"Genesis" are Aircraft Grate. ( 6061 T6, 4130 Steel, AN Hardware).

Also, in the pics I've seen, the stock model does not have suspension. It is a straight square axle. The upgrade uses a rather thick round tubing that pivots from the keel on both sides. Seems to be the only way to go to me. All airframe seems to be round tubing except the mast and keel. The joints where round meets square are joined by boxed brackets with a bushing inside. He also has plastic endcaps for all of the tubing which is cool. Seems very detailed. I've spent a lot of time saving every single Genesis picture I can find and then zooming in, observing these details. Trying to pick it apart as you are. So far, I'm very pleased with the workmanship.

Nic has stated all over his site and on here that it's a pay and build project so there is no extra stuffs to buy such as cable and wiring. I'm assuming this means Everything. I don't see a single rivet on this thing but if there was I would assume they would be included.

Nicolas, please advise how the mast breaks down or is "removable" as the site says and how practical it is. Many have enclosed trailers and small garages. Is this removable thing meant for transportability or just ease of construction? I read that it breaks down from four bolts but the only place I see that possible in the pics is from the very bottom. But that would be the engine would fall on my foot! Maybe some pics would be helpful. What is the height together and broken down? Thanks.

 

[All_In]

...
John, What do you mean by 1st to offer sub kits?

It's seems I missed a few posts, sorry if I missed any others please remind me.

If I'm mistaken please correct me. I'd rather know the truth than be right.

When I asked the 4 other manufacture's if they had financing or have a pay as you build plan. They all said no. Soon after I became an Agent for Aviomania we created and offered a $2,500.00 sub-kit pay as you build option.
Since then at least one other manufacture has now offered a $5,000.00 pay as you build option for their ultralight only. This is an example regarding how competition helps all of us.

 

[All_In]

I can answer the last question Ron had about the hardware. The site says

Also, in the pics I've seen, the stock model does not have suspension. It is a straight square axle. The upgrade uses a rather thick round tubing that pivots from the keel on both sides. Seems to be the only way to go to me. All airframe seems to be round tubing except the mast and keel. The joints where round meets square are joined by boxed brackets with a bushing inside. He also has plastic endcaps for all of the tubing which is cool. Seems very detailed. I've spent a lot of time saving every single Genesis picture I can find and then zooming in, observing these details. Trying to pick it apart as you are. So far, I'm very pleased with the workmanship.

Nic has stated all over his site and on here that it's a pay and build project so there is no extra stuffs to buy such as cable and wiring. I'm assuming this means Everything. I don't see a single rivet on this thing but if there was I would assume they would be included.

Nicolas, please advise how the mast breaks down or is "removable" as the site says and how practical it is. Many have enclosed trailers and small garages. Is this removable thing meant for transportability or just ease of construction? I read that it breaks down from four bolts but the only place I see that possible in the pics is from the very bottom. But that would be the engine would fall on my foot! Maybe some pics would be helpful. What is the height together and broken down? Thanks.

Thank you Brian for answering that, I missed another great question.

 

[John Stahl]

John
I am still bummed that you can’t buy a tandem unless you have 100 hours of flight experience.
I still would like to see the tandem put through its paces. Not that I would fly like that but knowing that if I had to I could, would be comforting.

 

[Aviomania]

Ok... There is some confusion!!!!!!! John we we must coordinate better so we do not confuse people

 

[All_In]

Straighten us out boss!

Straighten us out boss!

Ok... There is some confusion!!!!!!! John we we must coordinate better so we do not confuse people

That is why I run everything through Nicolas as I'm easily confused at a higher level.

 

[Aviomania]

the basic kit includes

electric Prerotator, Instruments (VSI, ALT, ASI, dual EGT and senders, Dual CHT OR water temp and senders, fuel level and sender, rotor and engine RPM, hour meter, 62" 3 blade ground adjustable carbon fiber Prop (High performance with formed SS leading edge protection.. not just tape), Bensen type main Undercarriage and aircommand type nose gear, 24' Rotor Blades, all metal parts, all Glass Fiber parts (nose pod, seat , fuel tank, wheel pants), all AN Hardware, Rotor Head, Controls, Engine (Rotax 503) with Gearbox, throttle leaver, throttle cables, fuel lines, fuel and air filters, fuel valve, fuel primer, cushions for the seat, safety harness, wheels tyres tubes and brakes with leaver and cables, instrument panel, kill switches, engine mounts, circuit breakers, rectifier regulator, Wind Screen, Rudder Cables, cable fittings, pulleys turnbuckles, all aluminum tail and all rivets ( you can choose flash or dome pull rivets or solid rivets.. depending on your tooling)... and few more that i forgot to mention.

The only thing you need to buy is Battery, electric wires, any switches for accessories ( if you install landing light etc.) and to have the parts painted or powder coated. we can supply prepainted parts and a wire harness if desired.

head and controls are clear Ceramic coated for protection. All hardware are AN and all aluminum is 6061 T6 except some parts that are 2024 and 7075 ceramic coated. Brackets are SS.

As we said the landing gear is Bensen type and the nose is built up like the aircommand. these are very light and suitable for 503.

582 upgrade price is for the engine. We give you the option to choose from a commercial radiator or rotax radiator. All fittings, expansion tank etc are included in the price.

4031 landing gear upgrade (main and nose) are aerodynamically cleaner offer suspension and can handle rough Fields and heavier landings.

mechanical prerotator upgrade replaces the electric with the mechanical which is 9 lbs heavier.

Engines are shipped directly from us. Rotor blades for USA will be shipped directly from Ernie. Hardware may be shipped from Aircraft spruce directly.

crating is included... shipping can be surface ( 60 days and cost around $800-$1000) or airfreight and cost $1300 - $1500 depending on options. Partial shipments cost 3-4 hundred more.

metals are bare requiring finish. we can supply painted or powder coted on request.

Composites are primed. minor filling and painting is required.

You see.... we do not leave anything out or charge any crating or handling fees. shipping is to nearer int. airport. Surface is door to door.

when we will have Aviomania USA up and running should have kits ( at least 1)in stock with a fixed price to your door.

Manufacturing is done in Cyprus. Parts inventory will be available and stocked in USA in the near future. If we become overwhelmed with orders we may expand partial kit manufacturing in the USA.

the 4 Sub kit assemblies are available but we recommend the first 2 to be purchased together. the first one alone does not have to much work to be done.

 

[Aviomania]

Confused! I thought the 912 came with a gearbox?

yes it does and the price for a Genesis with 912 (80 HP) with todays rate is around $32000 ( includes the upgrades necessary)

 

[Aviomania]

Nicolas, please advise how the mast breaks down or is "removable" as the site says and how practical it is. Many have enclosed trailers and small garages. Is this removable thing meant for transportability or just ease of construction? I read that it breaks down from four bolts but the only place I see that possible in the pics is from the very bottom. But that would be the engine would fall on my foot! Maybe some pics would be helpful. What is the height together and broken down? Thanks.

The mast comes out from the bottom. you need to remove the 4 bolts at the bottom as well as the push rod bolts and slacken 6-8 other bolts at the engine mount area. then you slide the mast up.

It is not designed to be something you will be doing after every flight. the mast finish will eventually be scratched ( the part that slides in) and will need "retouching". it take about 15 minutes to remove or replace.

the pictures shows the prototype and the mast removal

 

[Aviomania]

first the rotor speed drops very low. i see 270- 290 RRPM in that maneuver. During early test with the genesis i have recovered it from 220 RRPm with the stick shaking like crazy. Now imagine if the engine quits. lowering the nose will reduce the RRPM further.

That is were the effective rudder of the Genesis will come into play and will give you a chance of landing it... heavy but you have the Chance.

Looks like your getn a handle on it now Nik.
Neat flic.

Just remember, wen the rrpm drops this low, they are very slow in cyclic responce, so be sure your not feedn cyclic into it wen that tail wips the nose round.
Cyclic stall gets noisey.

Thanks David. I still want to see you flying a genesis thought!!!

from recovery tests i did (when i pull back on the throttle) a 45 to 50 degrees right ruder turn puts me straight and level in a vertical descend with a slight nose down which increases (nose down) due to th large HS.... So it remains for me to time the flear at the right time... hopefully to have enough stored energy for a soft landing.

rotor to tail clearance is 8" with full back stick and full teeter deflection ( flap)

 

[Aviomania]

Alex.. i will post later a sat. view of the airfield and mark the flight. there was always a way to avoid the trees. you will understand when you see.

 

[willisbr]

Could a smaller brace insert be made, cut the mast I'm half, insert the brace and then have some cheek plates on the outside that bolts all the way through? I'm going to have to think of something ingenuitive so that I can store In my garage and not have to buy another trailer. Thoughts also from the community on this?

 

[Aviomania]

Could a smaller brace insert be made, cut the mast I'm half, insert the brace and then have some cheek plates on the outside that bolts all the way through? I'm going to have to think of something ingenuitive so that I can store In my garage and not have to buy another trailer. Thoughts also from the community on this?

When you are ready you give me the hight that you have to store the gyro in and i can arrange something for you.

 

[willisbr]

Thanks Nicolas. I like that stick if it is an option over the straight stick.