Aviomania - Viking First Impressions

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128458 said:
engines are engines, honda , suzuki, they can do the job provided they are correctly tuned on a real dyno, and after this tested, adapted... it juste take time, quick money never make long lasting buisinesses
Engines are engines but they are made and engineered for different purposes. A car engine is made to run 80% of the time at 30% power not 85% power. Its also not so critical to get it extremely light. Its metallurgy and cooling is made for its intended use. If Honda can save $35 per engine via metallurgy for 1 million engines for auto purpose versus aircraft purpose, you bet they'll do it. Can it be converted fr aircraft use. Yes but not without engineering proper solutions for all the points above and most likely you will always come out heavier for the same power because you relied on a car engine where weight isn't as important. It is not a fluke that in experimental aircraft one of the biggest serious incidents creator is engine failure and the engine a majority of that time happens to be some alternative engine. Engineering solutions properly, testing properly, matters.
 

jm-urbani

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Abid,
you may be rigth but again what about my friends flying with bmw R1100 , subaru, and bmw 1200 without problems ?
who are flying everyweek end I mean , not doing a couple of patterns for you tube reasons
 

eddie

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Its everything that Fara said and a little more,installation is the problem most of the time,fuel starvation is probably one of the biggest causes of engine failure.

the install has to be well thought out,and aviation quality parts used when possible.
 

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128463 said:
Abid,
you may be rigth but again what about my friends flying with bmw R1100 , subaru, and bmw 1200 without problems ?
who are flying everyweek end I mean , not doing a couple of patterns for you tube reasons
Happy New Year !!!
That's good. I personally have about 600 hours in a trike with converted Suzuki G13BB engine. But that was my 11th conversion. The first 10 conversions I did buying engines from other people, JDM engines, using other people's techniques and almost everyone of them had at least one engine out. So it took me about 9 conversions to get the installation of G13BB on a pusher prop aircraft to where I got 600 hours without problems. The JDM engines were supposed to be low miles and what I found was none of them really looked anything like a real low time engine I got out a car in the US which was hit at the back and totaled at 11000 miles.

I don't know how many hours trouble free your friends have but once you have a fleet of them with 600+ hours withut major problems on all of them that's when I would consider that type of installation figured out. If I did an engine conversion for AR-1, you can bet I would do it with G13BB (new engines) with the same gearbox and the same ignition and injection system I had used because I know that worked and was figured out to be reliable. It would be 30 pounds heavier than 912ULS for 107 HP. The problem is by the time you buy a new Suzuki engine and everything else you only save $5-6k over a 912ULS. So is there a big advantage and market.
 

jm-urbani

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Happy new year Abid,
what you are saying is true
i have only one thing to add, you can't get enough power from a 4 stroke running at 6000 rpm max without a turbo charger
and one can't install properly a turbocharger if one doesn't have both a true dyno with all the sensors including shock sensor and if one have not played for years with engines for years
as for the weigth , you are perfectly true, my friends are using heavy engines, they have not more then 200 hours for the moment
what I meant is that it is working for them and i don't understand why joe's engine did not work
 

jm-urbani

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Abid, a rotax 912uls only has 107 hp on the rotax dyno ... not in realy life
 

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128477 said:
Abid, a rotax 912uls only has 107 hp on the rotax dyno ... not in realy life
No it actually only has 98 HP and 100 HP with their intake which no one uses really. 107 is the Suzuki G13BB with high compression pistons otherwise its also only 100 HP with fuel injection. (MPFI). But its heavier than Rotax but with the extra weight it performs pretty much the same as a 912ULS does on a similar machine and in Florida or near sea level for people of normal weight (170 to 190 pounds), 912ULS provides adequate power for a gyroplane. It when you start getting 220 pounds with 2 people and hot summer is when you start to see noticeable performance difference with 912ULS. Cheapest way to get good perfrmance and not use a 914UL is to lose some weight
 
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Vance

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jm-urbani;n1128470 said:
i have only one thing to add, you can't get enough power from a 4 stroke running at 6000 rpm max without a turbo charger
and one can't install properly a turbocharger if one doesn't have both a true dyno with all the sensors including shock sensor and if one have not played for years with engines for years
as for the weigth ,
How much horsepower is enough?

A Lycoming IO-320 makes 160 horsepower at 2,700 rpm.

Years ago I turbocharged a 98 inch Datsun and it ran trouble free for 100,000 miles before I sold it with 160,000 miles on it. I did not have access to a dynamometer for that project, had no antiknock sensors.
I used an SU carburetor and tuned it by reading the spark plugs.

I used the pickup for towing my road racing side car and hauling a Moto Guzzi Lemans to the races. I wanted to be able to pass people going up the grapevine hauling 2,500 pounds of racing junk.
 

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128470 said:
Happy new year Abid,
what you are saying is true
i have only one thing to add, you can't get enough power from a 4 stroke running at 6000 rpm max without a turbo charger
and one can't install properly a turbocharger if one doesn't have both a true dyno with all the sensors including shock sensor and if one have not played for years with engines for years
as for the weigth , you are perfectly true, my friends are using heavy engines, they have not more then 200 hours for the moment
what I meant is that it is working for them and i don't understand why joe's engine did not work
Joe's engine did not work simply because its not properly engineered nor properly tested for the application. Very simple.
 
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jm-urbani

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Vance;n1128490 said:
How much horsepower is enough?

A Lycoming IO-320 makes 160 horsepower at 2,700 rpm.

Years ago I turbocharged a 98 inch Datsun and it ran trouble free for 100,000 miles before I sold it with 160,000 miles on it. I did not have access to a dynamometer for that project, had no antiknock sensors.
I used an SU carburetor and tuned it by reading the spark plugs.

I used the pickup for towing my road racing side car and hauling a Moto Guzzi Lemans to the races. I wanted to be able to pass people going up the grapevine hauling 2,500 pounds of racing junk.
Vance,
you know well that my english is so bad that it is difficult for me sometimes to write what I exactly think
in addition you may not have followed the discussion I was having with Abid from the begining
we were talking about 4 stroke 1.5 atmos car engines and I wanted to say that it takes a turbocharger to get 130 hp from this kind of car engines OK ?
this what I meant by "not enough"
as for the use of a dyno or not if you want to fit your datsun engine in your gyroplane without any dyno tunning , you are tottaly free to do wathever you want
regards
and happy new year
 
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jm-urbani

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fara;n1128491 said:
Joe's engine did not work simply because its not properly engineered nor properly tested for the application. Very simple.
I tottaly agreee with you Abid, tottaly
 

jm-urbani

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fara;n1128489 said:
No it actually only has 98 HP and 100 HP with their intake which no one uses really. 107 is the Suzuki G13BB with high compression pistons otherwise its also only 100 HP with fuel injection. (MPFI). But its heavier than Rotax
107 hp is a good number, how much does it weigh ?
 

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128494 said:
107 hp is a good number, how much does it weigh ?
If I remember right with light 40 amp alternator and light exhaust and muffler with SPG-2 gearbox and lightened intake, the weight of the engine installation was about 187 pounds. About 37 pounds heavier than Rotax 912ULS equivalent. Some people have successfully used Hirth gearboxes and they are probably lighter by 5 to 6 pounds. I did 11 trikes with Suzuki that are still flying around after 12 years. Some have updated some FI computers etc. however.
 
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fara

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jm-urbani;n1128492 said:
Vance,
you know well that my english is so bad that it is difficult for me sometimes to write what I exactly think
in addition you may not have followed the discussion I was having with Abid from the begining
we were talking about 4 stroke 1.5 atmos car engines and I wanted to say that it takes a turbocharger to get 130 hp from this kind of car engines OK ?
this what I meant by "not enough"
as for the use of a dyno or not if you want to fit your datsun engine in your gyroplane without any dyno tunning , you are tottaly free to do wathever you want
regards
and happy new year
Your English is a lot better than our French sir. I speak a few different languages and I started learning French when I stayed there for a couple of months. Unfortunately didn't learn enough or use it enough. Some day.
 
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jm-urbani

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fara;n1128496 said:
Your English is a lot better than our French sir. I speak a few different languages and I started learning French when I stayed there for a couple of months. Unfortunately didn't learn enough or use it enough. Some day.
merci
il faut que tu viennes visiter pascal et dominique a montélimar (et moi) tu verras l'usine de rotors (((-:
tu restes plusieurs jours et on te parlera pas l'anglais !
 

jm-urbani

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fara;n1128495 said:
If I remember right with light 40 amp alternator and light exhaust and muffler with SPG-2 gearbox and lightened intake, the weight of the engine installation was about 187 pounds. About 37 pounds heavier than Rotax 912ULS equivalent. Some people have successfully used Hirth gearboxes and they are probably lighter by 5 to 6 pounds. I did 11 trikes with Suzuki that are still flying around after 12 years. Some have updated some FI computers etc. however.
it is just fantastic to see that your trikes are still flying after 12 years !, 185 pound is not so heavy in my opinion,16 kilos more then a rotax is just a very good result , very good, it is really easy for 2 people to loose 8 kilos each in esterns countries like us !
 

PW_Plack

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fara;n1128467 said:
I personally have about 600 hours in a trike with converted Suzuki G13BB engine...The problem is by the time you buy a new Suzuki engine and everything else you only save $5-6k over a 912ULS. So is there a big advantage and market.
Abid, have you looked into the Aeromomentum conversions? They claim to be assembling engines from all new parts with their proprietary gearboxes, and offer a 13BB-based 100-HP version for $8k complete. That would be a substantial savings over any 912.

I'm watching the progress of a couple people locally who have that engine in two-place PPCs. The 1.3L, 100-HP package is the only one they have lots of hours on, and it seems pretty well sorted in airboats. I'm skeptical of the fuel efficiency claims, as it's based on the ECU map, and a Geo automobile would probably be running 1800 RPM to get those numbers at 55% power, something you couldn't do driving a prop.

They also compare "dry weight," which makes the Suzuki look better against the Rotax. I believe the 13BB uses greater quantities of oil and coolant.

A friend who just ordered one says the package is very quiet and smooth, an advantage I'd expect using an inline vs. flat configuration.
 

fara

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jm-urbani;n1128498 said:
it is just fantastic to see that your trikes are still flying after 12 years !, 185 pound is not so heavy in my opinion,16 kilos more then a rotax is just a very good result , very good, it is really easy for 2 people to loose 8 kilos each in esterns countries like us !
Haha. Absolutely I will soon one day visit Pascal, but I think I will have to speak some English if I want to learn French :). Its gotten to the point that my dreams of playing Squash as a teenager are even in English. I was at Blois in 2011 last I was in France and I flew around the French country side a little. On the way back from Blois, I even landed in a farmer's field when we encountered a wall of bad weather. The farmer unfortunately thought we crashed and called the police. Thankfully the police officer had been to Tampa and loved our beaches so they just let it be. Whew!!! I had no French ULM license and the aircraft was not even properly registered in France. I was flying with EU microlight champion who was French and that helped and my passenger was a cute French American girl and that definitely helped. LOL.

Yes 185 to 187 pounds is not a bad weight but that's after taking a lot of precautions for weight. Its easy to come out at 200 pounds with that engine as well.
 
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fara

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PW_Plack;n1128499 said:
Abid, have you looked into the Aeromomentum conversions? They claim to be assembling engines from all new parts with their proprietary gearboxes, and offer a 13BB-based 100-HP version for $8k complete. That would be a substantial savings over any 912.

I'm watching the progress of a couple people locally who have that engine in two-place PPCs. The 1.3L, 100-HP package is the only one they have lots of hours on, and it seems pretty well sorted in airboats. I'm skeptical of the fuel efficiency claims, as it's based on the ECU map, and a Geo automobile would probably be running 1800 RPM to get those numbers at 55% power, something you couldn't do driving a prop.

They also compare "dry weight," which makes the Suzuki look better against the Rotax. I believe the 13BB uses greater quantities of oil and coolant.

A friend who just ordered one says the package is very quiet and smooth, an advantage I'd expect using an inline vs. flat configuration.
Yes. They are right here in Florida. They are no lighter than what I was able to do myself. The problem with them is when it takes many months to get an engine after ordering, its basically a non-starter. The G13BB Suzuki engine is the one that is 100 HP stock and can be increased slightly. The problem with all these companies including Viking is standing behind their product after sale. None of them have a good record of doing that well. Rotax asks you to pay at first and send them defective components back but they determine warranty and do pay the customer back once they have the original defective parts back. They also pay labor at a predetermined rate if its a warranty issue.

If I was inclined to do it, I would simply hook a SPG-2 or a Hirth gearbox on and stand behind the engine myself instead of relying on Viking or Aero-momentum. I do not trust them to treat people right. Unfortunately and sadly my fears are proven right like the story of this very thread and this isn't the first one I know about. How these companies expect OEMs like us to entertain their products when they behave like this is beyond me.

G13BB is going to be 35 to 40 pounds heavier installed compared to 912ULS. There are just no two ways about it. Trust me I tried to make that conversion as light as possible without cutting down reliability. There is no further magic. Yes the engine runs very smooth and is also better fuel consumption compared to 912ULS a little. I used inline configuration always
 
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jm-urbani

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how can they get 130 hp at 66% rpm out off a 1.5l honda engine without any turbocharger ?
it is a kind of magic
 
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