Aviomania Genesis - Kerrville

[MikeBoyette]

I appreciate what you're saying Mike. As an instructional point however, I much prefer the way Bobby has demonstrated this landing.

When the groundspeed is zero, the stick is full aft, and the nose wheel drops on its own, the touchdown phase of the flight is finished. Of course, we still have to manage the rotor, but the landing itself is essentially over.

Too many folks touch down with some forward speed then immediately start a takeoff roll. Most of the time nothing bad happens. But by doing it the way Bobby has demonstrated, variables are reduced, and, in my opinion, safety is enhanced.

Jim

Oh Jim I agree when I was training that’s how Dad and Steve taught me to do it. I’m talking when I had over a hundred TO and landings under my belt. I saw Dad do what I described and asked him how to do it. He talked me through it. It took a different level of skill. From then on when I would do touch and go’s I would never let the nose wheel touch. One time I was bored and went upwind and downwind on the taxiway balancing I was surprised I could still do it without letting the nose or tail wheel touch. Not once unless I wanted them to.

 

[Vance]

That was a particularly nice landing Bobby.

Congratulations!

Your flight instructor should be proud.

At the risk of seeming pedantic my radio call for that would be “stop and go” rather than “touch and go”.

If I used touch and go as my intention in my radio call a pilot unfamiliar with gyroplanes might be expecting a touchdown at around fifty knots and immediately adding takeoff power without coming to a stop. This would be a typical fixed wing touch and go.

I want the other pilots in the pattern to know how long I am going to be on the runway so they do not misjudge the spacing.

 

[Sv.grainne]

That was a particularly nice landing Bobby.

Congratulations!

Your flight instructor should be proud.

At the risk of seeming pedantic my radio call for that would be “stop and go” rather than “touch and go”.

If I used touch and go as my intention in my radio call a pilot unfamiliar with gyroplanes might be expecting a touchdown at around fifty knots and immediately adding takeoff power without coming to a stop. This would be a typical fixed wing touch and go.

I want the other pilots in the pattern to know how long I am going to be on the runway so they do not misjudge the spacing.

Thanks Vance, good point. I'll use that in the future. I've been doing these when AP is clear of traffic but who knows what may be lurking!

 

[rcflier]

Here's a short clip of my last outing. Doing lots of touch and gos traffic permitting!

Yep. That's how it's done. Keep it up (so to speak)...

 

[querist]

Thanks Vance, good point. I'll use that in the future. I've been doing these when AP is clear of traffic but who knows what may be lurking!

No kidding - my wife has had problems with Beechcraft Bonanzas coming in very quickly behind her before when she was out in a C172. Some people don't bother announcing anything even though they can see and hear other people at the airport.

 

[Vance]

No kidding - my wife has had problems with Beechcraft Bonanzas coming in very quickly behind her before when she was out in a C172. Some people don't bother announcing anything even though they can see and hear other people at the airport.

Giving poor radio is a common problem with low traffic airports.

In my experience pilots get careless and let their radio habits and skills go because there is so little traffic.

At the busier non towered airports people seem to get better with their radio calls and recognize the risk of conflict.

A gyroplane is difficult to see because pilots are looking for wings and our wings are invisible.

It is a little like riding a motorcycle, I assume I am invisible and have my lights on.

 

[MikeBoyette]

Vance would you consider it good advice to recommend a new gyroplane pilot to try to find a less busy airport? To me it would seem a wise choice to learn the machine and build confidence without all the clutter a busy towered airport brings. Then if they decide to move into that area their skills are already there and hopefully second nature. Just my thoughts

 

[Sv.grainne]

KERV is Untowered and generally is not to busy. We have some exec jets and twin engines coming in but easy to avoid. Other Airports within 50 miles are the same.

 

[Vance]

Vance would you consider it good advice to recommend a new gyroplane pilot to try to find a less busy airport? To me it would seem a wise choice to learn the machine and build confidence without all the clutter a busy towered airport brings. Then if they decide to move into that area their skills are already there and hopefully second nature. Just my thoughts

When I was learning Mike; I preferred a not very busy airport with an operating control tower because I felt ATC was looking out for me compared to a non towered airport.

At an airport with an operating control tower if I make a mistake with a radio call they simply correct me.

When I give poor radio at a non towered airport I may have a mid air collision.

I also like the extra eyes looking for traffic conflicts.

There are also fewer radio calls to be made at an airport with an operating control tower compared to a non towered airport.

My clients make that decision for themselves.

Because they have operated in both towered and non towered airports they are comfortable with either.

Part of the video debrief is to critique their radio calls and I find this helps the learning process.

I have been kicking around the idea of writing a post about radio communications but I simply have not found the time.

It appears to me that radio work may be a big stumbling block for some pilots.

They forget the elements: Who am I talking to, who am I, where am I and what am I fixing to do?

 

[MikeBoyette]

When I was learning Mike; I preferred a not very busy airport with an operating control tower because I felt ATC was looking out for me compared to a non towered airport.

At an airport with an operating control tower if I make a mistake with a radio call they simply correct me.

When I give poor radio at a non towered airport I may have a mid air collision.

I also like the extra eyes looking for traffic conflicts.

There are also fewer radio calls to be made at an airport with an operating control tower compared to a non towered airport.

My clients make that decision for themselves.

Because they have operated in both towered and non towered airports they are comfortable with either.

Part of the video debrief is to critique their radio calls and I find this helps the learning process.

I have been kicking around the idea of writing a post about radio communications but I simply have not found the time.

It appears to me that radio work may be a big stumbling block for some pilots.

The forget the elements: Who am I talking to, who am I, where am I and what am I fixing to do?

Excellent explaination. I prefer non towered as I become very nervous with someone watching me. Feel like I’m going to screw up. Thank you.

 

[Sv.grainne]

Vance: Look forward to your post "Gyro Centric Comms"...

Bobby

 

[querist]

It is a little like riding a motorcycle, I assume I am invisible and have my lights on.

My one motorcycle accident was a lady in a Mercedes who hydroplaned into me and rearended me while I was at a complete stop at a light. She didn't see me until it was too late, and I had my lights on.

I can relate.

 

[Resasi]

Vance would you consider it good advice to recommend a new gyroplane pilot to try to find a less busy airport? To me it would seem a wise choice to learn the machine and build confidence without all the clutter a busy towered airport brings. Then if they decide to move into that area their skills are already there and hopefully second nature. Just my thoughts

Great landing Bobby. Text book.

While it is important for students to learn in the environment they will regularly be flying in, with a new student as Bobby is, on a new gyro, as his is, then your thoughts are spot on.

My first flight in Blue was at an un-towered airport, with a flight school, and although we had intended an earlier departure we had got delayed and my 7:00am TO coincided with the start of the school day. That first pattern was enough to convince me I was in over my head on a brand new type, on an initial flight, and I had been mistaken to even take off.

My bad. I made a short circuit, landed and called it a day. Shouldn't have been there, and a bad judgement call, that luckily I was able to terminate early. I was completely familiar with busy traffic, but with a new type on a first flight. Shouldn't have happened.

A pilot should be able to judge when he is into uncomfortable territory and to make good judgement calls, but sometimes, we get a little behind, but hopefully can recognise and make the right call before things go bad.

 

[WaspAir]

Where traffic volume is concerned, it only takes two aircraft to produce a mid-air in an otherwise empty pattern.

If a student learns in an ATC environment (in my personal experience as an instructor, anyway) they get comfortable with radio work more quickly.

A couple of weeks ago I had the closest call of my life. I was in the back seat of a training glider with a student up front, being towed by an ADS-B equipped Pawnee, right over our airport at about pattern altitude. The uncontrolled private field is marked on the sectional and the TAC, with the CTAF, a glider symbol, and text about intensive glider activity. Legally, a towing operation has right of way over all other powered aircraft excepting only those on fire or worse.

I spotted a Cessna 172 approaching at about our altitude, and heard the tow pilot make two quick advisory calls that went unanswered. We began a turn to improve our visibility (my glider could not maneuver independently on tow). The Cessna passed barely beneath, and between me and the tow plane, closer to me than the length of the tow rope. I could read his N-number and I could clearly hear his engine over the sound of the Pawnee and the air rushing over the glider. I would estimate the separation at perhaps a wing span. The Cessna continued for a few miles, and then came back for a second pass to return to his 20-mile distant home base, by which time I had climbed another thousand feet and released from the tow. No radio calls from the Cessna were ever heard.

All this happened while we were the only traffic at the field, using proper radio protocol with three sets of eyes in our towplane / glider combination and operating ADS-B.


P.S. I obtained the Cessna's ADS-B trace by using his N-number and filed a near-MAC report with the FSDO, who took no action at all.

 

[querist]

Where traffic volume is concerned, it only takes two aircraft to produce a mid-air in an otherwise empty pattern.

If a student learns in an ATC environment (in my personal experience as an instructor, anyway) they get comfortable with radio work more quickly.

A couple of weeks ago I had the closest call of my life. I was in the back seat of a training glider with a student up front, being towed by an ADS-B equipped Pawnee, right over our airport at about pattern altitude. The uncontrolled private field is marked on the sectional and the TAC, with the CTAF, a glider symbol, and text about intensive glider activity. Legally, a towing operation has right of way over all other powered aircraft excepting only those on fire or worse.

I spotted a Cessna 172 approaching at about our altitude, and heard the tow pilot make two quick advisory calls that went unanswered. We began a turn to improve our visibility (my glider could not maneuver independently on tow). The Cessna passed barely beneath, and between me and the tow plane, closer to me than the length of the tow rope. I could read his N-number and I could clearly hear his engine over the sound of the Pawnee and the air rushing over the glider. I would estimate the separation at perhaps a wing span. The Cessna continued for a few miles, and then came back for a second pass to return to his 20-mile distant home base, by which time I had climbed another thousand feet and released from the tow. No radio calls from the Cessna were ever heard.

All this happened while we were the only traffic at the field, using proper radio protocol with three sets of eyes in our towplane / glider combination and operating ADS-B.


P.S. I obtained the Cessna's ADS-B trace by using his N-number and filed a near-MAC report with the FSDO, who took no action at all.

Unfortunate that the FSDO did not do anything. Is there an alternate mechanism for filing a complaint for clearly hazardous behaviour?

Also, while the odds are very slim, could it be possible that the plane either did not have a radio (unlikely) or that the pilot was deaf? (There are deaf pilots.) I guess I'm trying to find any reason other than the Cessna pilot being either incompetent or just an utter jerk for what happened.

 

[BEN S]

Waspy, been there done that at a towered airport in class D! Recertifying in a 172.
Tower confused two planes from same school and the solo student pilot in other plane hardly spoke any "Engrish"...
I could see the wear on the treads of his tire when he flew over our head on short final!
I was pissed!, but Guam is a VERY small place and making waves will usually come back and bite you later....
I called tower chief on cell and told him to get atc shit in one sock.
This is why on short final in my gyro I NEVER fly down the centerline. I fly over the grass in the middle, kick right and check behind me (crazy ivan) then land at the hold short intersection.
My time on the active can be measured in seconds.
I don't want to give anyone a chance to land on me!

 

[Aerofoam]

Where traffic volume is concerned, it only takes two aircraft to produce a mid-air in an otherwise empty pattern.

If a student learns in an ATC environment (in my personal experience as an instructor, anyway) they get comfortable with radio work more quickly.

A couple of weeks ago I had the closest call of my life. I was in the back seat of a training glider with a student up front, being towed by an ADS-B equipped Pawnee, right over our airport at about pattern altitude. The uncontrolled private field is marked on the sectional and the TAC, with the CTAF, a glider symbol, and text about intensive glider activity. Legally, a towing operation has right of way over all other powered aircraft excepting only those on fire or worse.

I spotted a Cessna 172 approaching at about our altitude, and heard the tow pilot make two quick advisory calls that went unanswered. We began a turn to improve our visibility (my glider could not maneuver independently on tow). The Cessna passed barely beneath, and between me and the tow plane, closer to me than the length of the tow rope. I could read his N-number and I could clearly hear his engine over the sound of the Pawnee and the air rushing over the glider. I would estimate the separation at perhaps a wing span. The Cessna continued for a few miles, and then came back for a second pass to return to his 20-mile distant home base, by which time I had climbed another thousand feet and released from the tow. No radio calls from the Cessna were ever heard.

All this happened while we were the only traffic at the field, using proper radio protocol with three sets of eyes in our towplane / glider combination and operating ADS-B.


P.S. I obtained the Cessna's ADS-B trace by using his N-number and filed a near-MAC report with the FSDO, who took no action at all.

So, do you need to install a horn, or a machine gun?....
These scenarios are frighten me more about flying than all the other risks combined....

 

[WaspAir]

Also, while the odds are very slim, could it be possible that the plane either did not have a radio (unlikely) or that the pilot was deaf? (There are deaf pilots.) I guess I'm trying to find any reason other than the Cessna pilot being either incompetent or just an utter jerk for what happened.

No, our club safety officer tracked down his counterpart at the CAP unit where the Cessna was based, who then interviewed the guy. The pilot claimed to have announced position and intentions on the CTAF and to have cleared me by more than a mile. From his story, it was clear that (1) he was on the wrong frequency if he actually used the radio at all, and (2) he never saw us at all on the first pass and only noticed us after I had released from tow and he had turned to go back home a few minutes after the near miss.

 

[Vance]

So, do you need to install a horn, or a machine gun?....
These scenarios are frighten me more about flying than all the other risks combined....

Some have found smoke useful to become more visible.

Wigwag landing lights are helpful.

Understanding radio communications has value.

Giving good radio has value.

See and avoid is a developed skill.

 

[WaspAir]

So, do you need to install a horn, or a machine gun?....
These scenarios are frighten me more about flying than all the other risks combined....

There's a good place for mounting a missile launcher if we had one available.