Aviomania Genesis G1sE Sport

Flynic3

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I am extremely interested in the AvioMania product line, namely the G1sE and was curious if anyone has experience building this quick build kit. I am also interested in alternative engine choices namely the aeromomentum AM13 engine which is comparable to the 912 at half the cost. I am also curious if anyone has experience using the Rotax 582 for this application. I really like the convertible aspect of this kit and the price point is excellent. If I am doing the math correctly this project could be built with the G1sE using the AM13 engine and MGL 8.5” iEFIS for around $35k. This same setup with the Rotax 912uls would also be an impressive build but would add another $10k to the price tag. I would love to hear what experience others have had with the Genesis G1sE. Any information about this company and the quick build kits it produces would be greatly appreciated. I have done quite a bit of research online and that is what lead me to this forum. I greatly appreciate everyone’s help and look forward hearing more about this gyro and company!

Cheers!

Nic
 

Vance

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Good Morning Nic.

In my opinion based on my experience and observations the engines are not comparable and the Rotax is worth the extra money.

If you are looking for a project then using a conversion engine is an interesting one.

If you want to fly my advice is to use an aviation engine.

Some people have good luck with conversion engines, most people do not.

You may be able to find a low time Rotax for a lot less than a new one although there is some luck involved in that too.

Be sure to budget something for training.

The cost can be significant and is hard to predict exactly.

The cost of not getting good training can be more significant.
 
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dinoa

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The AM13 is the heaviest of the three choices. You will lose some agility which is one of the thrills of flying a gyro.
 

Aviomania

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dinoa;n1128562 said:
The AM13 is the heaviest of the three choices. You will lose some agility which is one of the thrills of flying a gyro.


Dino is right!!! plus.... we do not sell kits without engines anymore....
We want our gyroplanes to be built as designed so that the owners will benefit by the hard work we devoted in order to offer a perfectly balanced gyroplane!!!
 

Flynic3

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I greatly appreciate everyone’s input and answers! I am currently registered and attending the PRA ground school. I plan on having my license by the end if summer. In the meantime I would like to build a project for when my training is complete. I would love to have one of the many side by side Gyro’s, however $80-100k is a little out of my price range. I am extremely active in my local EAA chapter 132 and have excellent builder support. There are a few active Gyro pilots including Lowell Farrand who has been flying gyros since the Bensen days. Lowell is a treasure trove of Gyro information and knows a lot about proper Gyro design. He was very active in the PRA and was also the co-designer and test pilot of the first PPG. He is quite the guy and I respect him and all that he has accomplished in Aviation. Anyhow I am getting a bit off topic...

I am looking into the SportCopter Vortex and the AvioMania Genesis G1sE for my project. I really like the stability and design of both these Gyro’s and Lowell recommends the SportCopter. He knows Jim Vanek pretty well and feels that his designs are some of the best out there. I have been researching numerous vendors for well over six months as I never jump into a project without the proper knowledge needed. I do have the chance to purchase a New and complete SportCopter Vortex with Rotax 582for $25k. I am just really unsure about a two stroke and am also worried about the fuel burn. I would love to build the AvioMania with the Rotax 912 however the $10k price hike is hard to swallow.

I do completely understand where AvioMania is coming from based on some of the issues with the YG4 and Viking engine installs.
Then again first installs of any engine will always have some problems.

AeroMomentum also has the AM10 75hp 3 cylinder at 138lbs
Based on what you said about the AM13 being the heaviest of the bunch, I would assume this is not the final installed weight.
http://www.aeromomentum.com/am10.html


HKS has the 700 4 stroke 60hp with 125-128lbs installed weight.
There is a great comparison of it and the Rotax 582 below.
https://www.greenskyadventures.com/E...ostCompare.htm

I would really prefer to stay away from 2 stroke engine however if I were to go that route from what I have read the Hirth engine line is the way to go. They offer the same power for less weight over the Rotax 582 with half the fuel burn. The engine is also half the cost of the Rotax and has the same prop hub and placement as the Rotax 582.
http://www.oregonaircraftdesign.com/engines.html

I personally only weigh 135lbs and am usually only 150lbs at my heaviest so I would think the HKS 700 or 582 would probably handle the job. I am just worried about the 582 being a two stroke and the higher fuel burn for lower power. Finding an Used Rotax 912 is an option I would be willing to look into however AvioMania stated they will no longer sell the kits without engines. As I stated the large jump in price of the 912 is hard for me to justify, so I don’t know what I am going to do at this point. It looks like finding a low time Rotax 912uls would be the best option to build this kit from AvioMania.

I hope Aviomania doesn’t give up on alternative engines just yet!

I greatly appreciate everyone responding and contributing to the conversation. It has given me a few more things to think about...

Cheers!

Nic
 
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CLS447

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I don't blame you for wanting a SxS..... How about a prebuilt RAF ? Add a stab....not too expensive !

Oh....Welcome to the forum !
 

Aviomania

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jm-urbani;n1128565 said:
@ Aviomania : the only thing you can't master is the pilot's weigh ! hahahaha

:) We did..... Certification was done for 120 KG (265 lbs) pilot on the seat (we did not use the standard 85 Kg).......

This guy is 115 Kg ( 253 Lbs)... and flies with a rotax 532!!!!! Not even a 582 which gives about 4 HP more..... :)

We do not just say that we have one of the most efficient gyro..... We prove it!!!P1020057.JPG
 

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Aviomania

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Flynic3;n1128573 ........I hope Aviomania doesn’t give up on alternative engines just yet!.............. Cheers! Nic [/QUOTE said:
Nic,

i always say when we sell a gyroplane with engine we offer the engine AT COST to the customer.... and nobody realises what that means!!!!!

Let’s say i will sell you a gyroplane WITHOUT engine... the price is 19950 euros (US$23500) ..... and with the 912 is 36290 euros (US$42800).

now... if you buy a kit without engine add: $8000 for the engine, $900 for a prop, 500 exhaust system, 300 cooling system, 100 rubber engine mounts, 100 air, fuel filters, fuel lines etc end expect about $1000 of parts to fabricate the engine mount to fit the gyro and to fabricate the lower prerotator drive.. so we have a total of $10900 of extra + 23500 the kit = US$ 34400... not counting labour, mistakes... painting (fabricating new parts means you will cut or scratch the frame and repainting will be inevitable) etc....

so you only save $8400 than if you were buying a new rotax 912 from us........(not counting labour and all other things...... o yes.. also sensors that comes with rotax...)

But i will give you other options......

I can find you a used rotax 912...... ( in Europe rotax are cheaper than USA)....... so it could cost you the same as the converted engine, but with a reliable rotax 912.....

OR.... find a used rotax.... prove to me you have it and i can sell you the gyroplane without engine and engine accessories.


ROTAX 582.

this option is still very good. if you use good fuel and good oil they last long time (i have 650 hours on one). power is great if you are less than 190 lbs. I am 180 lbs... And watch the performance here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVxsUrPUI4
or here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmXRBuhtWXk

Also... do not believe the weight and power ratings you see in converted engines.... weights for the engine are DRY weight.... but for rotax is FULLY INSTALLED weight....

some one tried the HKS engine on our gyroplane..... it was not good... to heavy compared with the 582.... performance was similar to a 503.

So.. you see i am giving options!!!!! please be wise!!
 

dinoa

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Some Suzuki G13 weights:

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24980&p=414666&viewfull=1#post414666

from Mark of Aeromomentum:
Some G13bb weights we have measured:
Long block with steel oil pan: 52.4kg
Factory stock "crate" engine: 77.7kg
Our "crate+" engine with lighter parts: 68.2kg
Our SS header: 3.4kg
Our AM13 with gearbox, starter, alternator, etc, dry and no exhaust: 77.3kg
There are some differences in the weights depending on the source, version, etc. We have learned what parts are better and lighter and this is one of the ways we keep our weight down.
For example the starter we use is 2.96kg and the alternator is 2.8kg.

Mark
 

fara

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dinoa;n1128610 said:
Some Suzuki G13 weights:

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24980&p=414666&viewfull=1#post414666

from Mark of Aeromomentum:
Some G13bb weights we have measured:
Long block with steel oil pan: 52.4kg
Factory stock "crate" engine: 77.7kg
Our "crate+" engine with lighter parts: 68.2kg
Our SS header: 3.4kg
Our AM13 with gearbox, starter, alternator, etc, dry and no exhaust: 77.3kg
There are some differences in the weights depending on the source, version, etc. We have learned what parts are better and lighter and this is one of the ways we keep our weight down.
For example the starter we use is 2.96kg and the alternator is 2.8kg.

Mark

These are bone dry weights. By this AM13 is the same weight as an installed Rotax 914UL (115 HP). AM13 is 100 HP. But its true installed weight if the dry weight is 170 lbs, would be 188 pounds. That includes oil and coolant. Exactly what I was able to get. So about 17 to 18 pounds more than Rotax 914UL installed and at 15 HP less. Or 36 pounds more than Rotax 912ULS installed for the same 100 HP.

Exactly like I had found in 2006
 

Flynic3

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Jean Michael,
Yes Sir! I have been bitten for sure!... all I do is research and contemplate how I am able to get myself into the air in a proper setup without breaking the bank. =) I appreciate your advice and I do agree with you about finding a simple project for my first gyro! After hearing what everyone has stated it makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it takes another point of view from someone else to see the flaw in your thinking!

Nicholas - AvioMania

I do completely understand where you are coming from Nicolas and I greatly appreciate your input on this subject. I do feel it would probably be best for me to take your advice for my first project. I would rather spend more time flying than working on my gyro so what you are stating makes complete sense. I am thinking maybe it would be a good idea to have you source a proper working used Rotax 912 for me. I would feel more comfortable with you sourcing the Rotax 912 than me doing so...
Would the kit still be in a quick build format if I went this route or will I be handling everything on the used Rotax for the install.
I am just curious how that option would work in that regard. Would it basically be the same thing as me buying the kit with a new engine or would the used engine require more work to build. I wouldn’t mind either way however was just curious how that would work out with you sourcing the engine for me. I was also curious if I would be able to purchase a MGL iEFIS 8.5” from John instead of the gauges that are included with the kit. How would that effect the price of the kit of it did not include the gauges normally included with the kit? I did not know if this was even an option however was curious...
I was unaware that I would be able to purchase an used Rotax 912 when I made my previous post, and I feel this is the best compromise! I do greatly appreciate you offering this option Nicolas!

I only weigh 135lbs currently and I am usually around 150lbs at my heaviest so the Rotax 582 would work for me. That being said I am not a big fan of two stroke engines and in the past have had issues with them. Even though the power of the Rotax 912uls would not be needed, I would feel a lot more comfortable flying a four stroke. I would also assume the maintenance and upkeep of the Rotax 912uls would keep me flying more often than the 582 engine. I just would rather not mess with the hassle of the two stroke engine pre-mix etc...
John stated he is happy with his 582 but does not fly it over anything dangerous... I don’t want to not even have a second thought about such worries!

If I could build an AvioMania Genesis G1sE for around $35k with a used low time Rotax 912uls then I feel this is more than fair for the end product received. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post in the forum and for providing me with another point of view! That is the beauty of these online forums... We can all come together to discuss our passion and throw around ideas!

Best Regards,

Nic Dawson

PS. CLS447 =. I still am interested in a side by side project and I was looking at the RAF2000 listed on the PRA sales forum however I have not heard anything back. I am not sure if the project is still available but was 90% complete with a zero time Subaru engine. I would love to have it but as you stated would have to beef up the tail or swap the stab completely. I do like the agility and stability of the single seaters though and will probably do most of my gyro flying by myself but it would be great to take others up with me to enjoy the experience with as well! I am rather torn between the two to be honest. I am just really impressed with the stability of the Genesis and I like the convertible aspect of the G1sE. I am curious if Nicolas has a two passenger convertible up his sleeve...
 

Aviomania

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Nic the kit will be quick built with everything you need to finish it .. as if it was with new engine....... you will just save the price difference of the used engine. We also supply MGL factory installed on the panel and prewired harness..... you just pay for the difference in price from standard instruments... we also offer panel mount radios configured to work from the iEFIS..... and transponders..... Even auto pilot :) :) ;)

yes we are working on an enclosed 2 seat......

.... 912UL (80 HP) is plenty of power.... i can source used engines both 912 ul or uls.....

So.... email me if you are interested....
 

Flynic3

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Nicolas - Aviomania,

Thanks again for the quick response and extremely helpful information. This has answered about ninety percent of the questions that have been running around in my mind. Now this project makes more sense to me and the reason I was so concerned over the $10k price increase of the 912 was the MGL iEFIS. If I were to build a New project with the G1sE, 912ul, MGL iEFIS and corresponding radio. I would quickly be hitting the $50k mark and at that point I would be back to looking into a side by side... maybe used. I just wanted to explain my thought process behind my desire for something different or even used...

I agree with you that 80hp would be plenty and I was thinking of the 80hp Rotax 912ul when responding. It just seems that either my fingers or autocorrect always wants to put uls after the 912. =) This would be the route I would like to take and the used motor makes a lot more sense to me. From what I have read about the 912ul it seems to be a pretty bullet proof motor... What is the average hour usage of the used engines you acquire? Do they include a log book and maintenance records etc? Have these engines ever had a prop strike, exceeded the maximum RPM range, EGT’s or CHT’s etc?

Now on to the final few questions that I have about this project... What sort of lead times do you expect this project would take to source the motor and get the kit ready for shipment with the MGL iEFIS, radio and lets say autopilot? Please feel free to over-estimate the time frame you think it may be. I am mainly wondering how long it will take from the time of deposit to the time I would receice the aircraft...

What would be your estimated total cost of this project minus shipping with the G1sE Quick Build kit, Used Rotax 912ul, MGL iEFIS 8.5” w/corresponding radio, and auto-pilot. I am also curious if I would be able to easily install the auto-pilot later or would this be better to install at the factory during assembly?

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and you have really helped out a lot in my decision making on this project. You are a gentleman and a scholar... I look forward to hearing from you and hopefully doing business together in the near future.

Cheers!

Nic
 

Flynic3

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Thank you Dinoa for the information that you found about the Aeromomentum engines...

I do think these engines will be a great alternative to the Rotax on gyros in the near future. I really like the AM10 and AM13 engines and feel they would preform well for the money.

That being said for the time being I think the Rotax engine will probably be the best choice for the Genesis G1sE. This will also get me up in the air much sooner than installing the AM10 or AM13 engines. I think with a used Rotax 912ul it will be the best compromise all the way around!

I greatly appreciate the helpful information!

Cheers!

Nic
 

Brian Jackson

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Flynic3;n1128573 said:
There are a few active Gyro pilots including Lowell Farrand who has been flying gyros since the Bensen days. Lowell is a treasure trove of Gyro information and knows a lot about proper Gyro design. He was very active in the PRA and was also the co-designer and test pilot of the first PPG. He is quite the guy and I respect him and all that he has accomplished in Aviation. Anyhow I am getting a bit off topic...

Wow... I'm a friend of Lowell's... I bought my MiniMax FW kit from him. He was always one of my favorite folks, and agreed; a wealth of information and experience. He was on my mind just earlier this week. Wondered how he was doing. I'd love to get in touch with him again. Been quite a few years.
 

Flynic3

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Brian,

I figured and was hoping someone would know him! Yes, Lowell is one incredible gentleman and one of the truly nicest guys I have ever met! I just spent about an hour speaking with him at the Nappannee EAA’s Hangar over fly in. He seems to be doing really well and just finished up a book that I would recommend reading called “God, me and those Flying Machines”. I could spend hours with him just talking about all his exploits and the book is a great read about them! I plan on going to visit him soon and I can alternatively e-mail him for you and ask if it is okay to give you his number. Knowing Lowell I doubt that will be an issue however I just want to ask permission prior to passing out his personal information. I am really excited to hear that you know him and have had experience working with him. If anyone is looking for an excellent DAR he is one of the best and won’t be doing it much longer...

Cheers!

Nic
 

Brian Jackson

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Flynic3;n1128666 said:
Brian,

I figured and was hoping someone would know him! Yes, Lowell is one incredible gentleman and one of the truly nicest guys I have ever met! I just spent about an hour speaking with him at the Nappannee EAA’s Hangar over fly in. He seems to be doing really well and just finished up a book that I would recommend reading called “God, me and those Flying Machines”. I could spend hours with him just talking about all his exploits and the book is a great read about them! I plan on going to visit him soon and I can alternatively e-mail him for you and ask if it is okay to give you his number. Knowing Lowell I doubt that will be an issue however I just want to ask permission prior to passing out his personal information. I am really excited to hear that you know him and have had experience working with him. If anyone is looking for an excellent DAR he is one of the best and won’t be doing it much longer...

Cheers!

Nic

Thank you, Nic. I would appreciate that greatly. Sorry to get off topic.
 

wnwgj

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For what it's worth, I scoured the market for a suitable single seat kit gyroplane to bring into the UK with its very stringent regulations and the one I ended up deciding to go with is the Aviomania GS1b with the GS1e Sport as the next one.
 

Flynic3

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Wnwgj,

I have been looking for and researching gyros for quite some time as well. That is what lead me to the decision of wanting a SportCopter or Genesis for my project. The Genesis G1sE being my favorite and more than likely what I will be going with. Your opinion does mean a lot and I appreciate your post! Out of all the gyro designs I have seen and researched the Genesis impresses me the most and I am looking forward to hopefully building this project. I appreciate everyone here for the assistance and helpful information... you all have been Amazing!

Cheers!

Nic
 
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