Audio Speaker Correction (The Zobel)

Fliterisk1

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I've posted this on a few other places in the internet, with little response. Apologies for its length, and rather dry reading, but it is very important to the enjoyment of my stereo. It is a real solution to a problem. Stereos are important to a lot of us, and many here are do-it-yourselfers, so I posted it in this forum. There are two topics: the Zobel circuit, and speaker balancing, so this really should be split into several posts.
Since I am not active in electronics, my knowledge of the audiophile world is vague, to say the least. What is presented below is from information found on the internet, and from my own assumptions based on the lack of information. What is very odd is that, as popular as speakers are, there are NO news groups I know of that are specific to audio speakers. The question is have they been restrained?
At this point, no one has yet corrected this writing; which is essentially my perception of circumstances, that, apparently, are not favorable to the consumer.

A few references...
https://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/papers/zobel/zobel.pdf
https://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm

This is a set of instructions for a simple and inexpensive corrective circuit most speakers require, but are not commercially installed on any product I know of. If there are any passive crossover circuits (most are passive) in your system then you will probably need it, and badly.

If your speakers are balanced then they should sound almost as balanced as headphones. Are you so satisfied with your speakers? There is a chance you are not. I was not, and am angry as to why that is. This post is an act of war against those who cheated me, and are still cheating many of you. My speakers are now repaired. It is quite a relief!

If your speakers are not balanced then you will probably want to invest in more expensive systems, or different types of speakers, equalizers, etc. That's what audio companies want you to do, to spend money. But if you depend on their products then you will always be searching for that 'perfect' system. You may never find a balanced system off-the-shelf. That is done to you on purpose by those who know better. (I'm guessing that the very expensive systems do include this very inexpensive corrective circuit.)

The mental problem is in the greed of the audio companies. This repair would cost them, and the consumer, little. They are content to steal from you, by motivating you with a flawed product, and have been doing so for a long time. I am not an electrical engineer, so I do not depend on bloated audio companies to hire me, so I am not restrained to post this. I believe the circuit is rarely used.

The physical problem lies in the coil of the driver. It has impedance which varies considerably with frequency, and does not respond anywhere close to that of a resistor. Quite a while ago, I built speakers from a kit. The company which sold it said that speaker coils were poor inductors, and so will present a reasonably constant impedance to the crossover. You may have heard this also, but it is not true. If you are a little technically-minded; then with a tone generator, a VOM and a simple voltage divider circuit (one resistor), you can determine the actual impedance of your drivers at any frequency. It is anything but constant, and acts much as a coil would. They knew better.

Why is that important? Speaker sound output is nearly proportional to voltage, while crossovers are voltage divider circuits which include the driver as part of that circuit. What happens is that, with increase in frequency, the increasing impedance of the driver coil will increase the voltage applied to it, and so will force more high-frequency sound out of that driver. That sound was intended to be filtered by the crossover.

Active crossovers, however, use separate amps (so you spend more money). The driver, in such cases, is not part of any voltage divider circuit. The amp has full control of the voltage sent to the drivers. But if resistor attenuation, or a cap, is added then the driver may require it. (I probably wouldn't add it to the tweeter.)


The Zobel: •-----/\/\/\-----| |------•
Rz Cz

The corrective circuit required by all passive crossovers is called the Zobel circuit. It consists of a simple RC circuit in series. It is connected in parallel with its driver.

The woofer and midrange will certainly need this impedance compensation, though the tweeter may not be so seriously in need. Boosted ultrahigh frequencies are not as noticeable.. I have not installed it on my Klipschorn's, yet. They probably need it, (if there was a tweeter that did it would be the Klipschorn!). But the woofer and midrange do require this repair. You will notice the difference! I certainly did, and no longer fuss over my speakers.
___
Expected driver response: / \
volume vs frequency / \ (midrange)

___
Actual driver response: / ----____
without the Zobel /


The Zobel circuit will restore response to what we always expected and should have recieved. I've complained about my Kipsch horn tweeters, but found it was the increased output from my midranges which distorted the high end. With the Zobel, the midrange will be cleaner, and the woofer will be less distorted, since it won't be producing too much midrange sound. Balanced, with less intermodulation distortion.

If you decide to accept the project, first check to see that it is missing from your speakers before adding another. It probably isn't there. If they are present then it would be appreciated if you noted that fact.

For reference, search the internet for "impedance compensation", it may get better results than Zobel. There are other speaker anomalies mentioned with impedance, such as resonance. But impedance compensation is simple to correct and you will hear the difference immediately.

However, well-made, well-damped drivers should have little resonance problem. My drivers are well-damped. The manufacturer (Speakerlab) took measures to ensure that, and I have measured it. It is minimal, and does not resemble the large peaks shown in example drawings. The Klipschorns are also well-damped with magnetic fluid. (I refuse risk such a sensitive device by measuring them.) Resonance troubles would show up with midranges and tweeters. Resonance, as with coil impedance, causes an increase in impedance. But it occurs below the useful range of the driver, as opposed to above it.

The Zobel is attached electrically across the terminals of the driver, as if it were part of the driver itself. Except for a bit of wire, nothing electrically should be between the driver and its Zobel. It does not matter whether the resistor lead or capacitor lead connects to the hot wire of the speaker.

There are standard equations for determining the values of the resistor and capacitor. The standard values are Rz = 1.25 * driver dc resistance, and Cz = driver inductance/(Rz^2). Another source I've found suggests that Rz should equal driver resistance. BUT ANYTHING HELPS!

---->
Lacking information about driver characteristics (the inductance) should not prevent you from installing something. I would suggest...

Rz = 8 ohms (or 4 for 4 ohm speakers.)
Cz = 30-40 uf, for the woofer.
Cz = 10 uf for the midrange.
---->

If you set up a voltage divider circuit and test the driver with the Zobel connected, as was suggested earlier, you can refine the the values so that the impedance of the driver/Zobel combo is near the expected value. But, seriously, anything does help.

The ratings should be reasonably large for the amplifier being used, at least 10 watt resistors, and 50 volt caps. I would put two 16-ohm/10 watt resistors in parallel for woofers using large amps, and 100-volt caps. Bipolar capacitors will work. I use them, and they have acted predictably. The common polarized capacitors cannot be used with speakers.

One other thought...

It may be a good idea to check polarity of the wires to your drivers. I don't recall Speakerlab mentioning it, but reversing polarity may improve the sound. It did mine. Passive crossovers affect the phase of the signal. So much so that reversing polarity (180º shift) may help, though not completely correct it. That would be impossible with passive systems.

Phase error is relatively easy to check. Reverse the wires to the midrange of one of the speakers, then use a signal generator (such as WinISD, for free at https://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd , which uses your computer) at the crossover frequency(s) to see which speaker is louder. The loudest speaker is the correct polarity.

You check by reversing the midrange, but can reverse the woofer or tweeter after determining which phase is off. Don't be surprised if reverse polarity doesn't make a lot of difference, as a 90º phase shift is not unusual. Do this after adding the Zobel, for it will affect phase somewhat.

---------------------------------

Speaker Balancing

Now that you've installed the Zobel circuit on your drivers, you may want to attempt to balance the speakers' output for a flat response. My system was a collection of unmatched drivers and crossover, so I had to develop my own method. I have one, and it is simple--darned near obvious--though a bit tedious.

What we want is the sound ouputs of the drivers to have the same graphical shape and relative amplitude as their filter's voltage output. The Zobel circuit should correct for most of the shape error. As for amplitude, resistor attenuation networks are used to level the differences in efficiencies between drivers.

But how much attenuation? Do we guess by just listening for balance? I do not have confidence in that method, and it's the only one I've heard suggested to those who do not have access to oscilloscopes and good quality microphones.

The Method: What we know about crossovers is that the voltage outputs of adjacent filters are equal at their crossover frequencies. It is logical that, if the speakers are balanced, then the amplitude of the drivers at those frequencies should also be equal. Equal voltages, and equal volumes (at the same frequency) are not so difficult to detect and correct.

You will need a signal generator for the test. I used the WinISD program in my computer, which was connected to the amp.

We want to know where the voltages are equal, with accuracy. The rated crossover frequencies provided by the manufacturer are not sufficient, as they are calculated into a resistive load, and not your particular driver/Zobel combination.

To make crossover outputs accessible so I could measure voltages easily, I installed taps to each filter output, at the point before attenuation. A tap is a single wire attached to one filter, and the other end attached to a screw which is visible from the back of the speaker so it could be touched by a meter's probe. There is one tap for each filter. Only one speaker needs the taps. Only one speaker is tested throughout, while the other is disconnected.

The AC voltage of each filter is measured by touching the meter's probes to its particular screw, and the other probe to the convenient cable ground--with the amplifier's volume set sufficiently high to get a reasonable voltage reading. Say 3 volts or more as measured from the speaker cable itself. Set amp volume by measuring voltage across the main speaker cable, for at some frequencies a particular tap will have zero volts. You may be surprised how loud 3 volts RMS can be. But, at this point, we don't care how loud, as long as you and the equipment can stand it. Generally, the higher the voltage then the more accurate the test.

Vary the frequency from the signal generator until you find that at which the bass and midrange voltages are equal. This is the first crossover frequency. If you have a 3-way system, then again vary the frequency until you find that at which the midrange and tweeter voltages are equal. This is the second crossover frequency. WinISD increments in 100 hz. But you can type in any particular frequency you want, such as 650 hz.

Now that you know what frequencies to test, the next thing is to determine the attenuation necessary to balance volume at those frequencies. You will need to install switches to one of your speakers. They are connected in series with the drivers. For the first test, one switch is connected to the woofer and the other to the midrange, and then midrange volume is adjusted with attenuation.. For the second test, the switch is removed from the woofer and connected to the tweeter, which has its volume then adjusted to match the midrange. Midranges are usually more efficient than woofers, and tweeters more than midranges.

The switches allow you to listen to each driver at the crossover frequency by turning the other off so that you can determine if they are at equal volume. The two switches are simple on-off, and are connected externally by using long wiring (~10 ft) so you can walk around while alternately switching each driver. Drilling a small hole in the back of the speaker for the wiring should not cause much damage, and easily filled after you are done.

Standing waves occur when listening to a single tone, and they will shift position when changing speakers, or just when moving your head. So you will have to determine an average volume by walking around with the switches.

WARNING: Higher order crossovers (than 1st-order) can resonate if they are disconnected; such as by switching, or connected to a burned-out driver. The amplifier itself may burn up under such conditions. So you might use an inexpensive audio source. You will not require a loud signal in this test. Power consumption will be low.

You can speed up the procedure by installing the test attenuation resistors to the external wires, instead of reopening the speaker box for each change. So you wll also need to bring a ground wire through the hole. When you have found the right combination of resistors then they can be installed permanently inside the speaker.

WinISD's signal generator includes a built-in attenuator, apparently rated in db, though it is not marked. So you can adjust it to determine how many decibels attenuation will be required to equalize. Since it is not marked, I did not think to use it in my tests. It sure would've been easier. But it does seem to be in decibels. What else? I could not find it in the Help section.

The Resistor Attenuation Network:

(from crossover) •------•------Rs----• (to driver)
|
Rp
|
• (to ground)

Attenuation...
db Rs (ohms) Rp (ohms) Impedance (~8)
---------------------------------------------------
-1.93 2 40 8
-2.76 3 29 7.97
-3.52 4 24 8
-4.21 5 21 8.02
-4.86 6 19 8.06
-5.46 7 17 7.96
-6.02 8 16 8
-7.04 10 14 7.87
-7.95 12 13 7.87
-9.17 15 12 7.88
-9.9 17 12 8.1
-11.8 23 11 8.11
-14 32 10 8
-14.8 36 10 8.14
-20 72 9 8.08
-24.1 120 8 7.53
-29.8 240 8 7.75
-35.5 470 8 7.87

The db attenuation rating for an 8-ohm network is...
db = 20 * log(8/(Rs+8)) (with log to the base 10)

Replace 8 with 4 for 4-ohm speakers if necessary.

Rp is calculated so that impedance always remains near the rated value, 8 ohms in this case.

Rp = 1/(1/8 - 1/(8+Rs))

The method did smooth out my speaker response, and it was an old _complaint_.

---------------------------------

The Resistor Attenuation Network:

(from crossover) •------•------Rs----• (to driver)
|
Rp
|
• (to ground)


Be sure and connect the attenuator with proper polarity; both when connecting to the external switched lines, and when permanently installing them. Mark the lines coming out of the access hole so you'll know which comes from the crossover and which goes to the speaker.

To change attenuation you can either adjust the values of one network, or add another network in series; treating the output from the attenuator as if it were the output from the crossover. In such cases the decibel reduction is simply added.

On the internet, this is called an 'L-pad.' But the L-pad I recall was a variable pot made to have a reasonably constant impedance. But those L-pads are not linear, and their impedance is not constant. I kept my L-pads in circuit, but used fixed resistors to do most of the balancing. The fixed circuit helps stabilize the L-pad's impedance.

L-pads tend to corrode, and break contact over time. Spinning them will help clean corrosion. But a good penetrating oil made for electronics has kept mine operating almost trouble-free. Since I've balanced my speakers, the value of a convenient variable L-pad has diminished considerably.

---------------------------------

Finally... Graphical Results

The taps are not absolutely necessary to determine crossover frequencies. But I use them so I could determine crossover response (particularly the woofer) any time I wanted to. The actual response of the midrange and tweeter, however, are more difficult to measure. That's because they are usually attenuated, and attenuation often reduces the voltage to levels not measurable by the typical volt-ohm meter. Attenuation will hide the signals that the driver is actually responding to.

Did you ever wonder why meters can measure small DC voltages accurately, while AC ranges are restricted to power-line levels? Maybe so we can't do our own audio work? Or at least discover what audio signals are all about. The restriction of AC ranges on VOMs has always been an irritatant. Apparently, it is purposed. At least I'm convinced they are hiding something.

Anyway, you can still measure audio signals, but only as long as you turn the volume up to uncomfortably high levels. I prefer it in the 4-5 volts range, having a voltmeter which measures to 0.1 of a volt.

But it is interesting, even useful, to measure the voltages coming out of the crossover at ANY frequency. By doing that one can determine the shape of the output curves from the filters. Audio curves are measured in decibels (db). db = 10*log(Pout/Pin), with P=power. But we can't always measure power directly. However, power is usually a function of the square of the voltage. That since current is often proportional to voltage, so both increase linearly. That changes the decibel equation to ...

db = 20 * log(Vout/Vin) (with log to the base 10)

You will need to record the input voltage at each reading, for it can and will change with frequency. If you change the volume in the middle of the test then the db value should remain about the same. Other factors, such as RMS as measured by a meter, will divide out of the ratio and do not affect db.

The following discussion refers to signals at the same frequency. A signal at 0 db is one that is not attenuated by a filter, or amplified by two speakers on the same frequency.

When adding the sound from two speakers then you are adding power, not voltage. Doubling power will add about 3 db; such as by adding the sound of two balanced speakers at the same voltage. But doubling the voltage to one speaker will add about 6 db to the sound heard.

Adding two signals with both at -3 db results in 0 db, unattenuated. While adding two signals at -6 db results in -3 db. Adding two unattenuated sounds at the same frequency will result in a volume of +3 db. Adding a -12 db signal to one at 0 db results in about +0.26 db sound. This may help to interpret the curves you get from testing your system.

For purposes of graphing a resultant output from all crossover filters...

Total db = 10 log( (Vw/Vi)^2 + (Vm/Vi)^2 + (Vt/Vi)^2 )

With Vw = woofer voltage, Vm = midrange V, and Vt = tweeter V;
all taken at the same frequency.
And assuming no phase variations exist, but that is not true.
Near the crossover freqs, the total volume will always be less.

The response curves are plotted db vs frequency. Decibels are on the y-axis, and it is linear; usually in a range of -30 to 0 db. While frequency is plotted on a log scale. You need to make your checks over the range of frequencies from 20 to 20k hz. I would suggest these frequencies: 20, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 1500, 2500, 5k, 10k & 20k. Then fill in with more tests in the region of the crossover frequencies.

If somehow you are able to accurately measure the voltages to the midrange and tweeter, then, to normalize the plot, you would add the db rating of the attenuation to the db you obtained from your tests. That assuming you have equalized the volumes of the drivers at their crossover frequencies, and assuming speaker output actually is proportional to voltage in its operating range.

I can't, but if you can accurately measure all voltages to all drivers, then the resulting plot might be the closest thing to a proper representation of sound output off your drivers that you can get without using an oscilloscope--which may still have difficulty with standing waves. Your plot would also show the resonance peaks, which occur below the driver's useful frequency range; as opposed to Zobel corrections which are at the high end. But it will not, however, show the actual phase losses between drivers. At this point, it just irritates me that phase variations exist. I think they are difficult to detect by hearing.
--
Bryan Rhodes
 
Off topic??? In the right place. Hey I turn the stereo on. If it works good if not the go buy another.
 
Fliterisk, how about posting up something like a summary, or "abstract" for this. Without spending a lot of time on it, I can't tell what you really want us to take away.

Dave
 
I should've tested that page before posting, a newbie error.

The drawings are at the bottom.

And here is the Attenuator Resistor Table (best I could do)...

*db** Rs * Rp * Impedance*(~8)
-----------------------------------
-1.93* 2* 40* 8
-2.76* 3* 29* 7.97
-3.52* 4* 24* 8
-4.21* 5* 21* 8.02
-4.86* 6* 19* 8.06
-5.46* 7* 17* 7.96
-6.02* 8* 16* 8
-7.04* 10* 14* 7.87
-7.95* 12* 13* 7.87
-9.17* 15* 12* 7.88
-9.9* 17* 12* 8.1
-11.8* 23* 11* 8.11
-14* 32* 10* 8
-14.8* 36* 10* 8.14
-20*7 2* 9* 8.08
-24.1* 120* 8* 7.53
-29.8* 240* 8* 7.75
-35.5* 470* 8* 7.87
 

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There are many things you could add to your speaker system to reshape the sound. Whether it sounds truer to you has more to do with your personal preferences and ears than anything else. I very much doubt Speakerlab didn't put the Zobel circuit in to save a few pennies. Generally speakers are listened to and the crossovers tweaked to achieve the best sound. If that particular circuit isn't in there it was because it was decided by listening and measurement that it wasn't desired or perhaps never tried.
Which Klipch design do you have? The large Klipchorn has one of the neatest folded bass horn designs ever created.
 
The included drawing shows how I measured device impedances. It is the method I referred to for refining the suggested Zobel values. Impedances were treated as resistances, as that is the best I can do.
 

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The included drawing shows how I measured device impedances. It is the method I referred to for refining the suggested Zobel values. Impedances were treated as resistances, as that is the best I can do.


A problem you can have using the divider network you describe is the change you have introduced. This is why your voltmeter has a high input impedance to limit the effect on the circuit being tested. An inexpensive voltmeter will have at least 20K and many will have an impedance of 500K - 10M or higher.

The circuit you show and the formula is for a standard divider network. However when the load is connected in parallel with Rb the current through Ra increases increasing it's voltage drop and thereby decreasing the voltage across the load and Rb. Another problem you can have is the effect the input voltage may change because of the change in load it sees.

To lessen the effect on both the output voltage(Vn) and the load is to use a high resistors for Ra and Rb. Rb should be at a minimum 10 times the load impedance and twenty time would be better.

I would also recommend you purchase an oscilloscope and a signal generator if you are trying to determine the pass band for the different speakers.

Designing speaker enclosure is a world all its own. People get paid the big buck to design enclosures and matching networks.

One other problem is once a network is designed for one environment and the environment is changed the network may have to be changed.

Leon

(kc0iv)
 
Leon said...
People get paid the big buck to design enclosures and matching networks.

That's the only thing I could make sense of out of your reply. But the terms you used indicate you might know something.

Summary of Thread:

1) The intent is to get the voltage curves which the crossover was designed to output all the way to the drivers. Those curves are important! But what the drivers & enclosure do with those signals is up to them.

2) Crossovers are designed for a resistive load. Drivers are all too often treated as if they were resistive, or too complex to do anything else. But the largest error away from a resistive load is the simplest to correct, and it is inductance. The the simple RC circuit known as the Zobel essentially removes that error. The resulting impedance may not be 8 ohms, but won't be far from it.

3) The other error built into the driver, which is resonance, can be and should be substantially diminished by the manufacturer, and not handed off to technicians. The solution for resonance is a properly built driver. At this point, I believe resonance is used as a distraction from the Zobel (as are the above replies), and not convinced that it is a serious problem in quality equipment. At least, it isn't in mine.

4) If the driver's signals match the crossover output, then it is not so difficult to balance a set of drivers for a relatively flat response. Having a Klipschorn tweeter, one learns to demand a balanced system. The payback is substance.

5) The polarity of the wires to the drivers need not all be plus to plus, minus to minus. Inductors do one thing to phase, while capacitors do another; with the resulting phase shift being greater than +/- 90º. We want the drivers' outputs to add together, not subtract. Checking it is straightforward, using a signal generator at actual crossover frequencies. Which polarity is loudest?
--
Bryan
 
I find it interesting that someone who does not follow kc0iv's comments thinks he can improve on the design of a crossover.

Why do you believe that the manufacturer left out components the cost of which would be insignificant in their budget if the benefit of their inclusion would provide a significant marketable advantage?
 
After you've remade the crossovers in your speaker system, how are you going to compensate for the fact that the sound from the woofer in that system has to travel 16 feet before it gets to the front of the speaker, but the midrange and tweeter essentially directly radiate (albeit through their own horns)? Are you planning on adding a delay circuit for the mids and highs?
 
Leon said...

That's the only thing I could make sense of out of your reply. But the terms you used indicate you might know something.

Summary of Thread:

1) The intent is to get the voltage curves which the crossover was designed to output all the way to the drivers. Those curves are important! But what the drivers & enclosure do with those signals is up to them.

2) Crossovers are designed for a resistive load. Drivers are all too often treated as if they were resistive, or too complex to do anything else. But the largest error away from a resistive load is the simplest to correct, and it is inductance. The the simple RC circuit known as the Zobel essentially removes that error. The resulting impedance may not be 8 ohms, but won't be far from it.

3) The other error built into the driver, which is resonance, can be and should be substantially diminished by the manufacturer, and not handed off to technicians. The solution for resonance is a properly built driver. At this point, I believe resonance is used as a distraction from the Zobel (as are the above replies), and not convinced that it is a serious problem in quality equipment. At least, it isn't in mine.

4) If the driver's signals match the crossover output, then it is not so difficult to balance a set of drivers for a relatively flat response. Having a Klipschorn tweeter, one learns to demand a balanced system. The payback is substance.

5) The polarity of the wires to the drivers need not all be plus to plus, minus to minus. Inductors do one thing to phase, while capacitors do another; with the resulting phase shift being greater than +/- 90º. We want the drivers' outputs to add together, not subtract. Checking it is straightforward, using a signal generator at actual crossover frequencies. Which polarity is loudest?
--
Bryan

First let me say my response was an attempt to show you where your simple voltage divider could (and most do) give you the wrong answer. Using the divider circuit you showed in post #7 I will attempt to give you why the answer would be wrong by a factor of 50%.

Value for Ra = 20 ohms
Value for Rb = 8 ohms
Value for Vin = 1 volt

The results of Vout would be 0.288 volts

Now we change the circuit by adding a resistor in parallel with Rb ( the input load to the driver) equal to 8 ohms.

The new Vout would be 0.168 volts

Which is a error of 58%.

Now that is assuming the loads are pure resistive. It you add in a inductive component to the network which is what the Zobel circuit is trying to over come it becomes much more involved.

This is were the resonance ( which isn't really resonance) you referred to comes in to play. When you add capacitance as you are doing with your simple RC circuit you have to know what effect this RC circuit will have. As the frequency changes the value of C effects will change. This could be the very reason you are seeing a phase shift. A pure resistive network will not cause a phase shift.

Not being involved in the audio world other than my electronic training during school I looked at a few networks that are used by Audio Engineers. In the ones I looked at they used a more involved circuit than a simple RC circuit. Most having at least 10 or more components.

When I answered your posting I assumed you had some knowledge of electronics and could understand something as simple as a resistive network. I fear what I have written above may well be over your head as well. If so I'm sorry I'll back out of this discussion.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
After you've remade the crossovers in your speaker system, how are you going to compensate for the fact that the sound from the woofer in that system has to travel 16 feet before it gets to the front of the speaker, but the midrange and tweeter essentially directly radiate (albeit through their own horns)? Are you planning on adding a delay circuit for the mids and highs?


Jazz,

Now you see why I said "People get paid the big buck to design enclosures and matching networks."

A simple RC network isn't going to solve a sound system. In fact it could cause new problems. As you change one sub-system the rest of the system is changed which required additional changes.

It is kind of like adding a new fuel tank to a gyro. What effects is that new fuel tank have on the rest of the gyro?

I don't know about you but I sure wouldn't connect a multimeter across a speaker coil as the article said to do. A good way to blow a speaker coil.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
The above replies are loads of @#%.

Caution: Do not test your tweeter unless it is connected to the crossover. More on that later. I have not suggested it.

kc0iv's pseudo-analytical discussion is insane. For one thing he described Rb as "the input load to the driver". But Rb is the driver, or driver/Zobel combination. Of course he knows that.

However, I will add that a suggested resistor value should be about what you are measuring, 4 ohms or 8 ohms; in that range. My 20 ohms is a bit high, though with not that much error; unless you are testing a 4-ohm driver, and at 1 volt. And again, I will suggest a higher 3 volts for test. kc0iv's 1 volt suggestion is too low. He meant it that way.

The techs will distract us with things which do not involve the crossover. Jazzenjohn mentions the folded horn to impress us, because he knows I'm probably at least familiar with it. But the current wave on the internet is the transmission-line mounted woofer. Another is the Theile-Small parameters for modeling the driver. All are insanely complex. They want it that way. But that is not the way it is--in order just to function. The techs refuse to give us JUST WHAT FUNCTIONS. They intend to make big bucks just for function. Damn you, techs; go to hell! Want some help?

kc0iv said,
I sure wouldn't connect a multimeter across a speaker coil as the article said to do. A good way to blow a speaker coil.

Now why is it possible to blow out a speaker coil? Because you guys made sure the only way we could test them is with higher, unpleasantly loud voltages? 4 volts RMS straight is what, 4 watts peak power? And which speaker are you concerned about? Why don't you enlighten us?

There is a hazard, and it is with the tweeter, and it is at frequencies below its normal operating range; such as if tests are made for it's resonant response, when it would be disconnected from the crossover. I did not suggest testing the tweeter, but a full warning is appropriate. Tweeters have limited movement, and just the half watt test power (from a loud 3-4 volts through the resistor divider) at frequencies well below its normal operating range might do it harm. The electrical current won't harm it, though the large deflections might.

However, if the midrange couldn't take a half-watt resonance test then it probably should be called junk. Care during low-frequency tests is appropriate--though this thread is not about that. My midrange was designed to operate as a full range, so I didn't worry (much) about testing for a 120 hz resonant. That is what it is, with a 12 ohm peak. But I had dropped the input voltage to 2.5 volts. Usually it's 4 volts or more.

These are not high-powered tests. You will not blow a coil in any speaker (specifically the tweeter) if you test in or above its operating frequency range; or if it is protected by a crossover, as during the search for crossover frequencies.
--
Bryan
 
<The techs will distract us with things which do not involve the crossover. Jazzenjohn mentions the folded horn to impress us, because he knows I'm probably at least familiar with it. But the current wave on the internet is the transmission-line mounted woofer. Another is the Theile-Small parameters for modeling the driver>

First, Thiele-Small is from the late 50's early 60's. Virtually every speaker designer uses it for a preliminary model of the speaker system. The transmission line system is completely different than yours in that the rearward radiation is damped and sent through a tube/tunnel/acoustical labrynth, that is determined by a fraction of whatever frequency is desired to be reinforced, then added to the front radiation. Yours is a sealed enclosure that uses the confined air behind the driver as an acoustical spring with the front radiation horn loaded. Quite different.

What I was trying to point out is that listening is a subjective experience. Your ears are by far the most non linear element in the music chain and if what you are doing makes it sound better to you, go for it. You started out claiming that every speaker company in the world is ripping off people because they don't have a "Zobel" circuit in it though. I disagree. Speakers are a series of compromises and the ultimate speaker is the one that is satisfying to you. Perhaps I read your first post wrong but it comes across like their is a big conspiracy to save a few pennies on crossovers.


<The mental problem is in the greed of the audio companies. This repair would cost them, and the consumer, little. They are content to steal from you, by motivating you with a flawed product, and have been doing so for a long time. I am not an electrical engineer, so I do not depend on bloated audio companies to hire me, so I am not restrained to post this. I believe the circuit is rarely used.>
 
I really don't why I should reply but what the heck.

You said:
kc0iv's pseudo-analytical discussion is insane. For one thing he described Rb as "the input load to the driver". But Rb is the driver, or driver/Zobel combination. Of course he knows that.

It was my understanding you were attempting to determine the correct ratio that will produce the best performance for the circuit under test. Now I'm not sure what you are attempting to do with this voltage divider.

You said:
However, I will add that a suggested resistor value should be about what you are measuring, 4 ohms or 8 ohms; in that range. My 20 ohms is a bit high, though with not that much error; unless you are testing a 4-ohm driver, and at 1 volt. And again, I will suggest a higher 3 volts for test. kc0iv's 1 volt suggestion is too low. He meant it that way.

A 1 volt signal is a standard measurement used by knowledgeable technician and engineers. It makes NO difference the ratio between Ra and Rb will remain the same. You could use any voltage level you want. The advantage of using a 1 volt level is most signal generators have a 1 volt output level as a standard output. In the discussion above I used it also to make the math easier. You notice the equation that you copied Ra/(Vin/Vout)-1) will give you the same results be it 1 volt, 3 volts, are any other voltage. The ratio will remain the same. Why don't you show us by using a Vin of 1 volt and a Vn of 3 volts? Show us the ratio between Ra to Rb changes because of Vin.

You said:
The techs will distract us with things which do not involve the crossover. Jazzenjohn mentions the folded horn to impress us, because he knows I'm probably at least familiar with it. But the current wave on the internet is the transmission-line mounted woofer. Another is the Theile-Small parameters for modeling the driver. All are insanely complex. They want it that way. But that is not the way it is--in order just to function. The techs refuse to give us JUST WHAT FUNCTIONS. They intend to make big bucks just for function. Damn you, techs; go to hell! Want some help?

Just what is the purpose of an enclosure like a "transmission-line mounted woofer"? I'll give you a hint:
A Transmission Line solves all these problems. A T/L is essentially a long, tapered tube with the woofer mounted in one end. The tube is filled with a soft, absorbent "damping material" much like pillow stuffing. Obviously a long straight tube would be impractical in your living room, so T/Ls are best rectangular in shape and "folded" into a more or less conventional box.

Did you notice the best T/L is a LONG tapered ( filled with a soft, absorbent "damping material") tube? Which as the article say it is not practical in your living room. So they compromise by using by a folded tube.

You still didn't answer John's question.

You complain about an equation being to complex for "Theile-Small parameters". I agree they are complex. However, to correctly explain a complete system all the variables must be included. Just because you can't understand the parameters doesn't mean other people can't understand them.

As an example. You want us to accept a RC circuit and you don't take account the effect the capacitor has on the frequency. You just blindly assign a value for C. More than likely from some value you saw in a book or article. Why don't you show us the effect C has on the RC circuit as the frequency changes?

You are wrong about what a engineer does for a sound system. The design engineer attempts to give you the best system he/she can produce for the money involved. Some people are happy with a simply speaker that cost a few buck. While other people have no problem spending thousands of dollars for a speaker. You seem to want a thousand dollar speaker for a ten dollar price. You want all the bells and whistles and are not willing to pay the cost.

You ask -- "Want some help?" As I said before I'm not an audio engineer but I'll make you an offer. I'll pay you $1000 to design me a cross-over network that meets the following requirements.
1) Handle - 200 watts.
2) Low frequency cut-off - 20 Hz.
3) High frequency cut-off - 25 Khz.
4) Total distortion less than - 0.001%
5) Production cost less $50 dollars (on a production run of 200 units).
6) Input/Output impedance - 8 ohms.
7) All outputs, other than selected output, must be less than 0.1db as reference to the input frequency.

When you get a prototype constructed send it to me for testing and if it passes all the above test I'll send you the money.

You said:
Now why is it possible to blow out a speaker coil? Because you guys made sure the only way we could test them is with higher, unpleasantly loud voltages? 4 volts RMS straight is what, 4 watts peak power? And which speaker are you concerned about? Why don't you enlighten us?

What voltage does your multimeter use for resistance measurement? What DC current does your multimeter supply into a dead short?

I have to assume you never heard of a Wheatstone bridge network. A good circuit for testing unknown resistance values.

BTW maybe you should check your figures for a RMS voltage of 4 volts.

You can on here with pages of information of which you don't have the required test equipment nor it appears the knowledge to understand what is being discussed. I'm not sure what you are attempting to show. One thing you have shown is your lack of respect for people that does have knowledge about this subject. Or maybe it was because you thought this news group wouldn't see through your BS.

The one thing I learned from this exchange is the amount time I wasted.

I suggest you go to school and study electronic. Learn the basics then at least you will be able to discuss the circuitry.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
I am not an electrical engineer, so I do not depend on bloated audio companies to hire me, so I am not restrained to post this. I believe the circuit is rarely used.>

Well John I am a retired Electrical Engineer and this guy has no clue as to what he is talking about.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
'parameters for modeling the driver. All are insanely complex. They want it that way.'

That is a very foolish statement. Admittedly, AC analysis and circuit design are confounding, but wishing the world was simple does not make it so. Insisting that it is in spite of abundant evidence to the contrary is likely to make others question your health status.

The suggestion that engineers like the fact that the models are complex is just laughable.
 
'parameters for modeling the driver. All are insanely complex. They want it that way.'

That is a very foolish statement. Admittedly, AC analysis and circuit design are confounding, but wishing the world was simple does not make it so. Insisting that it is in spite of abundant evidence to the contrary is likely to make others question your health status.

The suggestion that engineers like the fact that the models are complex is just laughable.

Ray,

While I have known some academician that loved to show how smart they were I have yet to have meet either a technician or engineer that wouldn't love for it to be as simply as it can be made. The problem arrives when it has been reduced to it's lowest level. Anything below this level causes a incomplete explanation of the subject matter. A second problem is people that have not taken the time to learn the subject then complain because they don't understand what is being said or written.

I would think it is like a person that goes to another country and does not know the language then complains because he/she can't understand what is being said or what the traffic signs say.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
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