ASRA new safety directive for TAG gyroplane.

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GyrOZprey

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All our USA TAG owner's have received this information prior to the publication of the ASRA Safety Directive and are aware!

The text of the SD reviews the new information & observations that provide more information on the likely cause of the tragic accident in Western Australia!:rip:

The rotor serial number's identified as needing a close examination and possible modification will fall between # TAG 020 and TAG 089

Our two earliest and 2 latest machines ...appear to fall outside the non-spec rotor serial numbers. All the rest we are identifying the rotor by serial number & inspecting …. mods will be done and each machine will be released back to service ...per ASRA recommendations.

It appears that the rotor manufacturer … deviated from TAG Aviation material & design specs against Neil's expressed concerns that a smooth steel rod (vs the encapsulated bag of leadshot)… breaking away from the binding material & subject to large centrifugal forces ...departing the rotor by punching out the end cap! This deficiency for NOT following the designers requested mods to steel rods -IF such rods utilized…. rests on the rotor manufacture's shoulders!

If ANY gyro pilot of ANY TYPE feels a severe abnormal vibration … out-of-balance shakes in their rotor system … PLEASE LAND ASAP … & DO NOT continue flying a machine that is "talking" to you that something is NOT RIGHT !( In the WA TAG accident… deteriorating rotor performance signs were missed/ignored ...not treated seriously) & possible careful preflight checks may catch something that is failing!

I'm sure this will stir up a whole new hornets nest of "not-so-civil" dialogue & word-smith nit picking & speculation here! .

.YEP ...'ere-we GO AGAIN!!!:der::mad::argue::violin:




As I have stated before … LET the ASRA expert gyro accident investigation team work it's way through the mass of material … we have to be patient … this all takes time & new facts come to light via Coroner's report releases and additional information from witnesses!

At this point the maker's of derogatory remarks about TAG gyro's material "made-in-China" , titanium & the fold mast plates design ...may soon be eating rancid crow … the failure of the plates appears to be secondary ...NOT THE PRIMARY CAUSE in these accidents!

TAG Aviation … manufacture of Titanium Explorer gyroplanes & TAGNA … the North American promotion, marketing & distributor believe in full disclosure of all safety issues that arise over time-in-service and in providing the best customer support & service out there!

Responses … be civil & I will respond … if it goes the way of much of the forum threads these days ...I'm gone!:whip:


SD 2019.01.pdf (
 

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Vance

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I just explained this very theory (rotor mast fracture was a result rather than a cause) to a very nice Titanium Explorer owner at Bensen days.

He will be relieved.

Thank you for keeping us up to speed Chris.
 

WaspAir

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I've never seen the internal attachment for blade weights on these models, so I need some help in understanding. How does the lead shot attachment differ from the rod attachment to make it more secure? I would suppose that the mass and centrifugal load should be very close to the same in either case.
 

Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
There is some insight into the TAG rotor blades on their website ( scroll down on the link to get to blades ) - doesn't show internal weights but may be of some background interest



http://titaniumautogyro.com.au/features
 

GyrOZprey

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IMG_2457.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3roE...ature=youtu.be



I just caught up with a posted news report on youtube in front of the rotor as it was recovered ..... one blade of rotor shows a normal looking end-cap intact (1:36)... the other has a definite rupture in the thick side of the end-cap (1:49) ...too fuzzy for definitive comment ...but ...it appears something ruptured OUT of the end-cap!
I will go take a picture of a slice of rotor tip I have as sample of rotor profile/materials! ... It is one of the earlier design when resin was impregnated with leadshot! ( The latest ones use a carbonfibre sock to contain the leadshot ... which is easier for the lay-up placement!) ....maybe a smooth steel rod is just not gripped as tightly by the resin...when aligned with all that centrifugal force!????
 

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Uncle Willie

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Is it known if the "Smooth Steel Rod" was of Carbon Steel construction?

If the Steel is Magnetic, A non-destructive test to confirm its existence could be as simple as placing a strong magnet against the leading edge near the blade tip and seeing if it is attracted.
If the Rotor Assembly contains the Lead Shot Encapsulated in a Carbon fiber Bag, The Magnet would not be affected.

If a Steel Rod is to be used, Something similar to Concrete Reinforcing ReBar with its convoluted surface would be preferred.
- - -

Shouldn't the accident investigation team have noticed this during their investigation instead of it being brought to their attention by the family during the scrapping process?
The key piece of evidence was seconds from being lost to the scrap recycler.
 

GyrOZprey

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Uncle Willie;n1143374 said:
Shouldn't the accident investigation team have noticed this during their investigation instead of it being brought to their attention by the family during the scrapping process?
The key piece of evidence was seconds from being lost to the scrap recycler.
Yes the 5 different ASRA inspectors involved are very contrite to have overlooked doing a detailed inspection of a mostly undamaged rotor ..... the focus was on the failure of the fold-mast plates!

In this video @ 1:08 ...the damaged end of the rotor was up in the far corner of the hangar against the wall..... & was overlooked /not obvious!

https://www.9news.com.au/videos/inv...ver-been-in-the-air/cjrvw0xru000s0rmqixbgvqbe

It was VERY fortunate that an experienced gyro pilot /CFI was involved in the wreckage disposal & recognized what he saw while cutting the rotor into small parts!
 

Kolibri

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At this point the maker's of derogatory remarks about TAG gyro's material "made-in-China" , titanium & the fold mast plates design
...may soon be eating rancid crow … the failure of the plates appears to be secondary ...NOT THE PRIMARY CAUSE in these accidents!
Sorry, Chris, but that's not quite what the ASRA Safety Directive concluded:


Subsequently, the wreckage was released into the custody of the wife and
mother of the 2 deceased who asked a friend to dispose of it. Whilst cutting
the rotor blades to facilitate easier disposal, he noticed that a leading edge
balance rod was missing. He finally discovered that the end cap of the same
blade was also missing. The whereabouts of the missing rod and end cap is
unknown. There is no evidence to suggest mishandling or mismanagement of
the wreckage after the W.A. Coroner's Office released it.

This observation raises a real possibility that the balance rod had departed
the Forrest Beach Titanium Explorer rotor under centrifugal force during
cruise, which – if this occurred – would have resulted in an instantaneous and
massive rotor imbalance. Where massive in-flight rotor imbalances occur (in
helicopters), it is usual for the rotor support structure to fail almost
instantaneously as well because the imbalance forces are so extreme.

There is a real possibility, therefore, that if such a massive instantaneous
rotor imbalance occurred with the Forrest Beach Titanium Explorer, then the
failure of the folding-mast side-plates would have been a secondary, rather
than primary cause of the double fatality.

In the meantime, ASRA considers that this very serious question mark over
the TAG rotor system represents a serious and imminent risk to flight safety.

Directive.
With immediate effect, all gyroplanes manufactured by the Titanium
Aircraft Group (TAG) are grounded until further notice
.
A) Only the Forrest Beach gyro was specifically mentioned, not G-0014 of 31 Oct 2018.
Thus, your
"these accidents" is over-inclusive and incorrect.
ASRA is consequently looking into the October 2018 Orange crash with regards to the balance rods.


B) Your "the failure of the plates appears to be secondary ...NOT THE PRIMARY CAUSE" is also overstated.
The Safety Directive worded it as a "real possibility", that's all.

C) The balance rod and end cap could have been ejected due to impact, vs. in the air.

D) "
This deficiency rests on the rotor manufacture's shoulders! "
I politely disagree. In my opinion, TAG was responsible for confirming design adherence and quality control of their purchased components.
(Personally, I prefer a gyro kit manufacturer to make their own quality rotor blades. To me, that demonstrates deeper understanding of their own machines.)


E) The mast plate design remains very dubious, as previously discussed by multiple posters.
The hole pairs should not be directly opposite each other like that. This is pretty basic, and hardly debatable.

F) ASRA has now grounded all TAG gyros for a new reason, while the mast plate design is not "off the hook".
Any celebration seems premature.


___________
If ANY gyro pilot of ANY TYPE feels a severe abnormal vibration … out-of-balance shakes in their rotor system … PLEASE LAND ASAP … & DO NOT continue flying a machine that is "talking" to you that something is NOT RIGHT … signs were missed & possible careful preflight checks may catch something that is failing!
Great advice for us all, thank you.

Regards,
Kolibri
 

GyrOZprey

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Thank you all the positive contributors ...when pedantic, argumentative SB's start provoking ... I DEPART:tape:!
( "appears" == synonym== "real possibility" I did NOT say "IS" (final -factual conclusion)... the green-text debater over semantics of word-usage ,nit-picker :argue: WILL NOT be engaged!!!! ( GRRR "walk away ...just walk away!":painkiller:)

I am privy to some information that cannot be publicized until ASRA make their final report ...SO CHILL DOWN "K" in your ridiculous green-text niggling vocab nit-picking!

"Uncle Willie" NAILED IT
Quit Nit-Picking over the words.
It serves no purpose and just tends to annoy everyone.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/nit-pick?s=t
BYE! ......continues .."elsewhere" !!!!:censored:
 

Kolibri

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Glad they figured it out Chris.
Vance, when did "possibility" become a synonym of "probability"?

_______
Responses … be civil & I will respond
Chris, I was civil, but expressed a contrary opinion.

( "appears" == synonym== "real possibility" I did NOT say "IS" (final -factual conclusion)

Sorry, but you're still overstating.

Your "
appears to be secondary" is not what ASRA implied.
The synonym of ASRA's "
real possibility" is "could be" . . . not "appears to be".

Words have meanings; this is not some subjective debate.
If you're going to summarize a report, please do so accurately.

Regards,
Kolibri
 

Vance

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I thought the language in the report was simple enough for anyone to understand.

I stand corrected.
 

Kolibri

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So, Vance, do you believe that the ASRA Safety Directive conveyed that the blade failure "appears to be" the primary cause in the Forrest Beach crash?

Does anyone besides the USA TAG dealer believe this?
 

Tyger

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So... it sounds like all TAGs are grounded in Australia now (not just the ones with foldable masts) till ASRA figures out what has really happened in each case.
 

Kolibri

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Tyger, that's how it reads to me, too.
Regarding non-Australian owners of TAG gyros and their blade weights, perhaps Chris Toevs should offer some comments.
 

Vance

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Kolibri;n1143454 said:
So, Vance, do you believe that the ASRA Safety Directive conveyed that the blade failure "appears to be" the primary cause in the Forrest Beach crash?

Does anyone besides the USA TAG dealer believe this?
Yes, I believe the loss of the blade weights may be the cause of the crash at Forest Beach. A good investigation takes time and I will wait and see what they come up with.

Ground resonance in a helicopter gives some indication of how a slightly out of balance rotor can affect the structure of the Helicopter. The blades are slightly out of phase during ground resonance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FeXjhUEXlc

An Air and Space 18A was lost the same way.

There are some other ground resonance videos on YouTube.

The loss of the rotor weight at rotor flight probably has much more force at a higher frequency.
 

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I believe Chris has already commented on the grounding and the latest ARSA directive specified that working with TAG on a one by one basis that these machines will be returned to service.

It does appear the chord wise balance weight separated first with the resulting imbalance causing the failure of the mast. Report further mentions that even helicopters are not designed for such imbalance.

TAG will develope procedures to identify the effected blades, with not effected returned to service. Hopefully there will not be many ultimately effected.
 
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