AR-2 Side by Side Gyroplane coming starting mid 2023

MikeBoyette

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It had a power/roll and power/yaw couple without rigging adjustments to compensate for that you mean?
No we joke that the machine is broken because of his style of flying. This is why I said it is every machine he flys. The pilot might be broken not the machine. Lol
 

Loren Jones

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Not all airplanes. Champ, J3 Cub etc.
May be your assumptions are restricted because of the airplanes you fly.
Regardless it is still important to understand why you are doing the technique and not just learn by rote.
In gyroplanes, you may be climbing at 60 knots and you may want to do your downwind at 60 knots also and the same is true in a 150. You climb at 67 on crosswind and you would be leveling out on downwind right around the same speed.
A generic prescription of levelling by pushing stick forward always does not apply to even all scenarios in an airplane. Not every flight and every climb is a cross country. You are supposed to cut power and adjust attitude simultaneously in an airplane if you want to maintain airspeed. It works. It also works the same in a gyroplane and works the same in a trike.
The difference in a gyroplane is even if you wanted to level out at a faster speed than your climb speed (Vy), you would still reduce power, level and then smoothly increase speed in a coordinated way with power. The reasons for that are obvious. Shoving stick forward with a bunch of power on is not a good practice in a machine that does not like to be unloaded. If you do it smoothly enough, nothing happens. If you do it like you are flying a 182, you'd see the G's go down for a little bit. Still likely nothing will happen in a gyroplane with an effective HS, but it is just not a desired practice in a gyroplane.
I have lots of time in every aircraft you mentioned. In every one if you pull power before reducing the AOA you're going to lose airspeed.

The bottom line is, you don't teach people to fly airplanes like they would a gyroplane and you don't teach gyroplane pilots how to fly gyros like an airplane. You teach them the techniques for each while helping them understand WHY we do what we do in each, not just rote reactions. Rote is the lowest level of learning. Long before solo they should be well into the Application level, if not well into Correlation. That should be the ultimate goal of every CFI, whether teaching airplanes or gyroplanes.
 

Abid

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No we joke that the machine is broken because of his style of flying. This is why I said it is every machine he flys. The pilot might be broken not the machine. Lol

Oh ok. I think I know what you mean
 

Abid

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I have lots of time in every aircraft you mentioned. In every one if you pull power before reducing the AOA you're going to lose airspeed.

The bottom line is, you don't teach people to fly airplanes like they would a gyroplane and you don't teach gyroplane pilots how to fly gyros like an airplane. You teach them the techniques for each while helping them understand WHY we do what we do in each, not just rote reactions. Rote is the lowest level of learning. Long before solo they should be well into the Application level, if not well into Correlation. That should be the ultimate goal of every CFI, whether teaching airplanes or gyroplanes.

I think we are really on the same page. When you say these words
" In every one if you pull power before reducing the AOA you're going to lose airspeed"

My pulling power in a J3 and adjusting attitude is close enough that you won't see the airspeed go one way or the other more than 3 knots. So, your before and my before although the same written word, is likely a bit different. The devil is in the details, but I agree with your point.
The airplane pilots that come to train have expectations that are highly unrealistic (at least to me). It is rare for me to find someone I can feel safe letting solo in 10 hours given that most of the transitioning pilots are well above 60 years old. I have seen that happen to airplane pilots who were in late 30's but they are not the majority coming into gyroplanes which in itself is a concerning trend to me.
 

querist

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I think we are really on the same page. When you say these words
" In every one if you pull power before reducing the AOA you're going to lose airspeed"

My pulling power in a J3 and adjusting attitude is close enough that you won't see the airspeed go one way or the other more than 3 knots. So, your before and my before although the same written word, is likely a bit different. The devil is in the details, but I agree with your point.
The airplane pilots that come to train have expectations that are highly unrealistic (at least to me). It is rare for me to find someone I can feel safe letting solo in 10 hours given that most of the transitioning pilots are well above 60 years old. I have seen that happen to airplane pilots who were in late 30's but they are not the majority coming into gyroplanes which in itself is a concerning trend to me.
I'm trying to get my kids interested...
 

Loren Jones

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The airplane pilots that come to train have expectations that are highly unrealistic (at least to me). It is rare for me to find someone I can feel safe letting solo in 10 hours given that most of the transitioning pilots are well above 60 years old. I have seen that happen to airplane pilots who were in late 30's but they are not the majority coming into gyroplanes which in itself is a concerning trend to me.

I'd be a little bit careful with age-related stereotypes, Abid. I've flown with some incredibly sharp 70 year olds and I've flown with some pretty dense 20-somethings. My very first student was a 65 year old accountant who picked up on everything very quickly and achieved his license in close to minimum required times. There's a wide range cognitive abilities at all ends of the age spectrum.
 

Abid

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I'd be a little bit careful with age-related stereotypes, Abid. I've flown with some incredibly sharp 70 year olds and I've flown with some pretty dense 20-somethings. My very first student was a 65 year old accountant who picked up on everything very quickly and achieved his license in close to minimum required times. There's a wide range cognitive abilities at all ends of the age spectrum.

There are always exceptions, but they are exceptions. I cannot deny that hits me like a ton of bricks all the time. Age does matter. If it did not, why would aviation insurance underwriters cut people off at 75? 3 of them at 70 unless you are an existing customer. Only one goes to 75. They have all the stats and lawsuits, and they are allowed to discriminate based on age and they do. That alone should put us back in the lane of reality. Of course, there are dense people of any age and not everyone is meant to be a pilot. That goes without saying. It is not just cognitive. It is also physical mobility, strength, reaction time. All of that. We should realize where we are and have a plan to compensate but not try and keep sugar coating things so much that we end up disappointed. 265 pound 70 year old is not likely going to be a pilot in a gyroplane in 20 hours. It will take longer, and he/she should be prepared for that and be realistic.
 

Loren Jones

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There are always exceptions, but they are exceptions. I cannot deny that hits me like a ton of bricks all the time. Age does matter. If it did not, why would aviation insurance underwriters cut people off at 75? 3 of them at 70 unless you are an existing customer. Only one goes to 75. They have all the stats and lawsuits, and they are allowed to discriminate based on age and they do. That alone should put us back in the lane of reality. Of course, there are dense people of any age and not everyone is meant to be a pilot. That goes without saying. It is not just cognitive. It is also physical mobility, strength, reaction time. All of that. We should realize where we are and have a plan to compensate but not try and keep sugar coating things so much that we end up disappointed. 265 pound 70 year old is not likely going to be a pilot in a gyroplane in 20 hours. It will take longer, and he/she should be prepared for that and be realistic.

Earlier this year I stopped at a small airport with a student to refuel. There I met a wonderful elderly gentleman who turned out to be 93 years old. He'd been flying the same '46 Champ since he bought it new. His insurance only pulled the plug on him this year. Definitely an exception, but for me worthy of considering tempering the ageism assumptions. I'm always going to look at the individual, not the candles on the birthday cake.
 

MikeBoyette

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I'd be a little bit careful with age-related stereotypes, Abid. I've flown with some incredibly sharp 70 year olds and I've flown with some pretty dense 20-somethings. My very first student was a 65 year old accountant who picked up on everything very quickly and achieved his license in close to minimum required times. There's a wide range cognitive abilities at all ends of the age spectrum.
Dad had a fella John Palmer who was 82 and had never flown a thing in his life. He was a natural pilot and soloed him in under 10 hours. He wanted a two place dad wouldn’t sell him one unless he had 200 hours. Didn’t want him killing an innocent passenger. So John bought a single place and did the 200 hrs in a little over a year. He had heart problems and would stop taking his meds when he flew because they threw off his inner ear. He was at ROC one year had just got down from flying his new two place dad built him walked over and sat down in a chair. When he sat down with a group of his gyro family he said hi and had a giant smile on his face. Everyone was talking they turned to John and his head was down. They thought he maybe taking a nap like us old men do. They spoke to him and he didn’t move. He died of a massive heart attack. Those of us who knew him took Solace in knowing he died doing something he absolutely loved. He joked one time with me shortly after the love of his life died. He said my wife better be glad I didn’t know what a gyroplane was before I met her. I said why is that. He said because I would have never asked her out I would have been too busy flying.
 

Abid

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Earlier this year I stopped at a small airport with a student to refuel. There I met a wonderful elderly gentleman who turned out to be 93 years old. He'd been flying the same '46 Champ since he bought it new. His insurance only pulled the plug on him this year. Definitely an exception, but for me worthy of considering tempering the ageism assumptions. I'm always going to look at the individual, not the candles on the birthday cake.

That works for you because you deal with them in person right from the start.
For us manufacturers, they are thousands of miles away and wanting to get into gyroplanes. I have to ask questions and recommend timelines based on nothing else but that phone call. My reality is very different, and I am forced to go with what 85% shows, not what the 15% exceptions are. People travel long distances to go train for gyroplane. Their expectations have to be realistic. A lot of the customers are retired with no time on their hands. They are scheduled out like they were working fulltime (for 2 businesses)
 

Abid

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Dad had a fella John Palmer who was 82 and had never flown a thing in his life. He was a natural pilot and soloed him in under 10 hours. He wanted a two place dad wouldn’t sell him one unless he had 200 hours. Didn’t want him killing an innocent passenger. So John bought a single place and did the 200 hrs in a little over a year. He had heart problems and would stop taking his meds when he flew because they threw off his inner ear. He was at ROC one year had just got down from flying his new two place dad built him walked over and sat down in a chair. When he sat down with a group of his gyro family he said hi and had a giant smile on his face. Everyone was talking they turned to John and his head was down. They thought he maybe taking a nap like us old men do. They spoke to him and he didn’t move. He died of a massive heart attack. Those of us who knew him took Solace in knowing he died doing something he absolutely loved. He joked one time with me shortly after the love of his life died. He said my wife better be glad I didn’t know what a gyroplane was before I met her. I said why is that. He said because I would have never asked her out I would have been too busy flying.

I knew John Palmer. He was at old Tampa Bay Executive. He did get his hands on a 2 place Domy. Trust me I interacted with him almost every week and he should not have been flying. He was not medically well. I was just a new trike pilot back then. I am glad he did not have a heart attack flying his gyroplane.
But what a nice guy he was. I had to go pick him up one time when he put his gyroplane down because there was an engine light from his Subaru that came on. I asked him if he saw oil temp or coolant temp heating or oil pressure going low and he said no. I would have flown as carefully as I could to the nearest airport I said instead of landing in the median of a highway but he did and did it well. His problem was his heart condition and his age. I would help him push his gyro out sometimes and I could see he was struggling badly just doing that.


His 2 place Dominator after his passing away ended up in the hands of Gary Kenslaw at Zephyrhills airport somehow. Gary was a trike instructor and a talented natural pilot but he was a character. He taught himself to fly that 2 place Dominator. So as much as your dad was trying to keep people from 2 place Dominators without experience, I can tell he was flying it completely illegally down the runways at Zephyrhills teaching himself to fly gyroplane coming from trikes which have complete opposite controls and opposite steering and he stayed alive doing it and built a couple of other single seat gyroplanes. My first ride in a gyroplane was in fact with Gary Kenslaw. Larry Mednick, my old trike business partner also flew with Gary. His back still hurts from that landing he says.
 
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MikeBoyette

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I knew John Palmer. He was at old Tampa Bay Executive. He did get his hands on a 2 place Domy. Trust me I interacted with him almost every week and he should not have been flying. He was not medically well. I was just a new trike pilot back then. I am glad he did not have a heart attack flying his gyroplane.
But what a nice guy he was. I had to go pick him up one time when he put his gyroplane down because there was an engine light from his Subaru that came on. I asked him if he saw oil temp or coolant temp heating or oil pressure going low and he said no. I would have flown as carefully as I could to the nearest airport I said instead of landing in the median of a highway but he did and did it well. His problem was his heart condition and his age. I would help him push his gyro out sometimes and I could see he was struggling badly just doing that.


His 2 place Dominator after his passing away ended up in the hands of Gary Kenslaw at Zephyrhills airport somehow. Gary was a trike instructor and a talented natural pilot but he was a character. He taught himself to fly that 2 place Dominator. So as much as your dad was trying to keep people from 2 place Dominators without experience, I can tell he was flying it completely illegally down the runways at Zephyrhills teaching himself to fly gyroplane coming from trikes which have complete opposite controls and opposite steering and he stayed alive doing it and built a couple of other single seat gyroplanes. My first ride in a gyroplane was in fact with Gary Kenslaw. Larry Mednick, my old trike business partner also flew with Gary. His back still hurts from that landing he says.
Yes the two place Dom John has was built by dad for him because he logged the two hundred hours dad required. I remember the incident you are talking about. John was a very literal person. While training him dad said one time if you ever see a red light from the gps get down as soon as it is safe to do so. He failed to mention that Occasionally the EIS would do a soft diagnostic and reset itself causing the red light to flash for just a second. John saw this and remembered what Dad said instead of taking the information and flying to the nearest airport John set it down in the middle of US 19. How he ever convinced that Highway Patrol a Subaru powered Dominator was an Ultralight I will never know. I also knew Gary and if I remember correctly he had time in helicopters in the Army. That machine ended up being bought and rebuilt. It was the blue one with a smoke system at Bensen Days the last few years. I agree he shouldn’t have been flying because of his health. Dad tried to talk him out of it and he said well I’m gonna do it if you don’t help me someone else will. Dad relented.
 

Abid

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Yes the two place Dom John has was built by dad for him because he logged the two hundred hours dad required. I remember the incident you are talking about. John was a very literal person. While training him dad said one time if you ever see a red light from the gps get down as soon as it is safe to do so. He failed to mention that Occasionally the EIS would do a soft diagnostic and reset itself causing the red light to flash for just a second. John saw this and remembered what Dad said instead of taking the information and flying to the nearest airport John set it down in the middle of US 19. How he ever convinced that Highway Patrol a Subaru powered Dominator was an Ultralight I will never know. I also knew Gary and if I remember correctly he had time in helicopters in the Army. That machine ended up being bought and rebuilt. It was the blue one with a smoke system at Bensen Days the last few years. I agree he shouldn’t have been flying because of his health. Dad tried to talk him out of it and he said well I’m gonna do it if you don’t help me someone else will. Dad relented.

Gary Kenslaw had time in helis. May be but he did not tell me that. I knew he was in the army but not as a pilot. He was a character. Landed his trike on top of 18 wheelers as touch n go a couple of times on I-75, scaring the crap out of the truck drivers. I know of 3 times personally he should have been dead but the guy had the lives of a cat.
 

MikeBoyette

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Gary Kenslaw had time in helis. May be but he did not tell me that. I knew he was in the army but not as a pilot. He was a character. Landed his trike on top of 18 wheelers as touch n go a couple of times on I-75, scaring the crap out of the truck drivers. I know of 3 times personally he should have been dead but the guy had the lives of a cat.
He taught my close friend Ron to fly trikes. When Ron died I felt guilty because I suggested he get into trikes because he didn’t like the vibrations of a gyro. You know the story of Ron’s wing folding in flight. Do you know is Gary still alive?
 

Abid

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He taught my close friend Ron to fly trikes. When Ron died I felt guilty because I suggested he get into trikes because he didn’t like the vibrations of a gyro. You know the story of Ron’s wing folding in flight. Do you know is Gary still alive?

Ron? Which Ron is that? Manatee airpark one? If so you know the previous time Ron flew that trike, he landed late at night and hit very hard. It is suspected that his wing leading edge tube was likely cracked from that hard landing but was not caught

No Gary passed away quite a few years back.
 

MikeBoyette

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Yes that’s him. You and I spoke about his crash before. You informed me of the fact that it was made of 7075 and most likely cracked from the horrible landing the week before. I told him all the time to practice power failures. He refused and when his engine got 300 hours on it he replaced it. He said it’s new it won’t quit. It did because he ran out of fuel. He didn’t know how to land without it and flared too high and fell through from 12 feet.
 

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I'm trying to get my kids interested...
Be very careful of this, sometimes including your family on a bad day you walk away from can have mental consequences you were not expecting. My youngest has no interest in flying ever since the day he watched me ball it up in Florida.
 

DavePA11

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Either they are interested or not. You can not try to get them interested… Just like trying to get your wife interested in flying… Won’t happen.
 

MikeBoyette

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Be very careful of this, sometimes including your family on a bad day you walk away from can have mental consequences you were not expecting. My youngest has no interest in flying ever since the day he watched me ball it up in Florida.
Ok I’m interested in hearing this story? You flew gyros in Florida how is it we haven’t met? Did you attend Fly-ins here? If so what years?
 

querist

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Be very careful of this, sometimes including your family on a bad day you walk away from can have mental consequences you were not expecting. My youngest has no interest in flying ever since the day he watched me ball it up in Florida.
Well, my youngest (21) and his wife saw the pictures and videos from when my wife and I went and flew in some gyros and they are very interested. :)
 
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